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Re: Mormons #27685 01/21/04 03:55 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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Thanks Steve, a lot of what you said I was aware of, yet I still don’t quite understand it.

There’s a couple of misconceptions in there. For example, we don’t believe that our works will save us. Rather, we believe that works are merely evidence of faith. In the Book of Mormon we are taught </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">…that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Often this is misunderstood. What is meant here is that even if we kept all the commandments and were essentially perfect, without the grace of Christ our perfection is not enough to save us. So it is our faith in Christ and His benevolent extension of grace which will bring us eternal salvation. Works are merely an indication of that faith as explained in James 2:17-24
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It’s pretty clear in the Bible that both Faith and Works must be wedded together in order for a man to attain salvation. If a person claims to have faith and yet that faith is not evidenced in part by some works, then that faith is most assuredly dead. You can't have one without the other and since none of us are mind-readers we must rely on the outward evidence of works as an indication of true faith.

What confuses me the most is why mainstream Christianity doesn’t use the standards espoused by Jesus when they evaluate an alternate faith system. Jesus says in Matthew 7:17-20
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jesus never said that the Bible was to contain 66 books and thus all revelation to mankind was to be closed – that’s an invention of mankind. Ironically, the Catholic church was largely responsible for the canonization of those 66 books and yet the same Christians who use that as a standard for judging Mormonism dismiss Catholicism as heretical.

Jesus’s form of Judgement was more righteous, “by their fruits ye shall know them.” Or by their works, or by what they bring to pass. Any honest person who reads the Book of Mormon cannot say that it contains some evil message. Rather what it contains inspires repentance and faith in Christ. That is a “good fruit” and Jesus has said that a “corrupt tree” cannot bring forth “good fruit”.

A few years ago I did a study on faith-based charitable organizations. On a per member basis LDS Charities contributes more money than any other faith-based charity on earth. LDS Charities contributes $11/per member of the church annually. The next closest was Catholic Relief Services (CRS) at about $1.50/per member annually. That $11/per member doesn’t include the estimated value of volunteer hours or donation of goods. Were that included the LDS Charities per member contribution increases to around the $30 range while CRS increases to about $2.50. Don't confuse this as some "works based" justification of Mormonism. Rather, I present this to illustrate that for whatever reason, the LDS church inspires it's members to give -- to give of their time, their money, and theirselves -- in the service of their fellow man. It would be hard to argue that the Mormon people don't manifest the “fruits” of the gospel; the only legitimate and Biblical standard on which to judge an organization’s or person’s “Christian-ness".

However, probably the thing I find most interesting about mainstream Christianity’s rejection of Mormonism is how it closely parallels the Pharisaical rejection of Christ. Jesus came not to overturn Mosaic Judaism but rather to “fulfill” it and to introduce more fully the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those with high and mighty positions within the religious establishment at the time were threatened by him and rejected him eventually conspiring to achieve his death on the cross. Is it not the same today? Mormonsim or the LDS Church rejects none of Biblical Christianity. There is clarification of core doctrines to be sure, there is the teaching of doctrines that deepen our understanding of the Savior and his mission, and there is the restoration of truths and practices that have been lost over the centuries since the apostles. Yet, we are a threat to the current “Christian” establishment and we are rejected.

Tell me how the rejection of Mormonism by mainstream Christianity is any different than the rejection of Christ by the Pharisees?


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #27686 01/23/04 08:38 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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I was talking to Kristi Ann about Norway and Geneology in another thread, but I didn't want to be too Mormon over there. IN short we Mormons are very into the geneology because we believe that family relationships are Eternal and will last beyond the grave. The easiest way to illustrate this difference in our belief is the way we get married. When we are married the person performing the marriage doesn't say that we are married "'til death do you part" but rather that we are married "for time and all eternity.

So anyway onto my Norwegian story. I lived over there for two years as a Mormon missionary as I've already discussed. One day I had some free time and I wanted to research some geneology about some family members way back that I knew had come from Norway. So I go down to the Norwegian State Archives and pull out some Microfiche and start looking things up. I notice a little symbol down in the corner of the Microfiche and so I zoom in on the symbol and it's a stamp of some kind that says "Microfiche provided courtesy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". So I sat there dumbfounded to have found out that I could have done all of this research back home in good ol' Salt Lake City rather than waste a beautiful Norwegian summer day at the State Archives. That's it for my story.

At any rate -- Steve, Allen, anyone -- I'm stil wondering how mainstream Christianity has determined that it's okay to reject Mormonism in the same way the Pharisees rejected Christ. Very close parallels.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #27687 01/24/04 06:14 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel writes:

So anyway onto my Norwegian story. I lived over there for two years as a Mormon missionary as I've already discussed. One day I had some free time and I wanted to research some geneology about some family members way back that I knew had come from Norway. So I go down to the Norwegian State Archives and pull out some Microfiche and start looking things up. I notice a little symbol down in the corner of the Microfiche and so I zoom in on the symbol and it's a stamp of some kind that says "Microfiche provided courtesy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". So I sat there dumbfounded to have found out that I could have done all of this research back home in good ol' Salt Lake City rather than waste a beautiful Norwegian summer day at the State Archives. That's it for my story.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wow Brother [Linked Image],

Now I am jealous a tad bit, not really. I am Second Generation Norwegian American in the USA. My Great Grand Father Johgan Jorgensen lived and died in Norway or Denmark, I am still searhing those records. My grandfther Olaf Jorgensen, came to the USA from Olso Norway in the early 1920s (1900-1966).My father Norman Clarence Jorgensen was born in San Francisco in 1937 (1937-2003). He had one Sister younger than him Gayle Jorgensen (1939 - present), She's the only pure blonde and blue eyed female in our Jorgensen side of the family. Gayle never had any children, just Like I haven't any children. I am Kristian Ann Jorgensen, I was born in Northern, California in 1960 Just North from Santa Rosa, California right off Hwy 101.

My grandfather Olaf Jorgensen didn't teach my daddy any of the Norwegian language, my dad only knew his father from 1937-1942 (my dad was only five). I never got to meet my grandfather Olaf Jorgensen at all frown , however, I have his death certificates for my grand father and my daddy. I don't know much about my Jorgensen side of the family. My daddy whom committied suicide due to cancer Februray 26th, 2003 took all the family secrets with him. I do have this really good news, My daddy Norman C, Jorgensen asked my mom if she believed in God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This sort of made peace with my mother Marion M. Jorgensen and I happy, becasue my daddy wasn't a close to the Lord until he died. So, Mom and I picture him in Heaven, whole and heathly again, no more wheel chair or breathing maching!! Woo Hoo, sorry, I get exctied talking about my daddy that way. I loved him very much, I am an only child, it's hard to lose someone you love, who helped you throughout my life. From my "birth defect" surgery in 1965 "Pectus Excavatum" at Los Angeles Orthopaedic Hospital Foundation . To school, teaching me to ride horses and my daddy's genteelness and careing towards me was amazing to say the least.

I am a Christian, I was Saved in 1979 at Calvery Chapel of Riverside, California, here's there Calvary Chapel Homepage .

I did use the Mormon's for using genealogical use for to find the where abouts of of my decaeased grandfather Olaf Jorgensen. Not only did they help me for free, they were Very kind in helping me search any of the records I needed for my search.

I am sorry Brother's and Sister's, I really mean to get off the topic here. This is part of my life, I can write a book, because I keep a diary! Most men don't keep diaries.

Your Sister Forever in Christ [Linked Image]

Re: Mormons #27688 01/26/04 03:22 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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Kristi,

did Olaf have any brothers or sisters that you are aware of? When he emigrated to the states did he go alone? I only ask because recently, my wife and I have come in contact with her grandfather's sister in Poland. Her Grandfather emigrated to the US in the 50's and left his family behind. He never really talked about them at all. After he died, we found a letter with a return address in Poland, we found a friend who could speak and write in Polish and sent off a letter on a whim and lo and behold, the address was still in the family. Since that initial contact we've exchanged many letters and learned a lot of family history and been able to trace our ancestry back two more generations on that side.

If you can find any Norwegians over there that are related, I'd be happy to draft a letter and maybe they could help you go a little further. There's only about 75 "Jørgensen's" in the Oslo Area according the Norwegian White Pages online, there's a good shot that you've got a distant cousin that still lives in the area (when Norwegians move out on their own they tend to only move down the street). The LDS geneological center you've worked with may have information regarding extended family. Sometimes in doing geneology we focus too much on going straight back when in reality it might help us to go further if we would weave to the sides a little bit to gather more info.

Also, your family name "Jorgensen" is really "Jørgensen". The "Jø" should be prounouced like the "Eu" in "Europe" so I guess your name is prounounced kind of like "Yurgensen." Some emigration official just took out the "ø" and replaced it with an "o" because we don't have that letter in our alphabet.

Allen, I don't want to veer too much off topic, so I was wondering if there should be a "family history research" thread in case there are other people out there interested in sharing research tips or simply sharing family history stories and whatnot. I'll leave that up to you.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #27689 01/27/04 09:39 AM
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Steve Offline
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I am not Allen but knock your socks off. (if it were me I would put it in Gibberish but that is just me talkin' smile


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tell me how the rejection of Mormonism by mainstream Christianity is any different than the rejection of Christ by the Pharisees? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm. Well for starters from your viewpoint I could say that you can see several similarities. But (there always is a but..) from this side of the picket fence I don't see them, though I do see and can grasp your views. While I do not accept Mormonism as Christian (because of several key points mentioned lots of times before wink ) I fell it is different than the rejection of Christ.

1. Christ said that the only way to the Father was through him.

That in and of itself can effectively eliminate any "religion" as a be-all, end-all. I do not believe that any Church has got it Doctrinely Pure as Christ, then the Apostles laid it down. I do believe that just like Isaiah said that all our righteousness is like filthy rags and our best effort isn't good enough. One day we will both know if either of us has it "more right" than the other. It is my wish that on that day we could discuss it over Heaven's version of Coffee. Though my fear is that your belief system will disqualify you.

2. While the LDS beleif system is condemned it is not persecuted by mainstream Christianity.

(THOUGH it is persecuted by a loud and vocal minority) I cannot find anywhere in the Bible that is says it is OK to persecute someone if they do not believe the way I do. (challenge, ok. Minister to, ok. But not persecute) The way I read the Bible if someone does persecute another God calls that sin. I know that no organized group will support such behavior. (I am talking Episcopal, Baptist, Assemblies of God etc)

3. The pharisees did not have any outreach.

I can walk into just about any "Christian" bookstore and find a book titled, something like, "How to witness to a Mormom" many churches have pamphlets available for their members.

4. Christs suffering was pre-ordained.

I don't see the revelatic prophesies (about the suffering in the end) as relating to the Mormon's exclusively but to all Christiandom, all beleivers.

I hear you and you have my sympathy for the less than Christian people you have run up against. You have essentialy been on the ragged edge while you do mission work, and you have met the rags... so to speak.


God bless ya!


"I'm part of the fellowship of the unashamed. I have the Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast. I have stepped over the line. The decision has been made - I'm a disciple of HIS.
www.Real-Men.net
Re: Mormons #27690 01/27/04 03:20 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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Steve,

You're pretty cool and I appreciate you taking time to respond. Here's the thing - I don't believe that a church is the end all be all of achieving grace in Christ. But I do believe that Jesus definitely established a well defined religious organization that was led by the Apostles and continued after his ascension. He called the Twelve and the Seventy to act as missionaries and to recieve revelation on how the church should evolve (i.e. answering questions about the necessity of circumcision or the decision to extend the Gospel to non-Jews were decided by the council of the Apostles). And through the organization Jesus established and the ministers he ordained, correct doctrine was preached and the only way to properly approach God through Jesus could be understood. It would be very hard to Biblically support an argument stating that Jesus did not lay down the foundations for a well-defined church with an established leadership hierarchy and a procedure (revelation to the Apostles) for decision making regarding true doctrine and practice.

So if, as I contend, Jesus did establish a church and if God is "the same yesterday, today, and forever." Why would it be different today? If there was a religious organization sanctioned (and organized) by Jesus while on the Earth, then why does mainstream Christianity deny the need for that now? There is essentially no ruling body for all of mainstream Christianity that they can agree on as being those responsible to guide the Christian world forward. That's not the way Jesus intended it to be. That is completely incompatible with Biblical precedent.

So all I'm saying is - Mainstream Christianity resembles the church established by Jesus about as much as Judaism at the time of Christ resembled Judaism as established by God through Moses. Both are/were devoid of prophets or at least won't recognize them if they disagree with the establishment. Both have established beliefs and practices that don't jibe with Biblical precedent.

One of Jesus' greatest parables is about a Lord of a vinyard (God) who entrusts the management of the vinyard to wicked husbandmen, the Lord of the vinyard sends his servants (prophets) to see how things are going and the wicked husbanmen reject them, persecute them, and eventually kill them. So the Lord of the vinyard sends his son (Jesus) who he is certain they will not reject and yet they kill him as well. (Matt 21:33-41; Mark 12: 1-9; and Luke 20:9-16) If you've ever studied history, and I'm sure you have, you've learned that the one irrefutable fact is that history is repetitive. I'm suggesting that the established religious hierarchy rejected Christ and his church in 33 AD and that they are doing the same today. The Lord of the vinyard is again sending his servants and they have been killed and they are persecuted, this time however, when the Lord of the vinyard sends his son he will send him with glory and power such that he cannot be killed and justice will be answered upon the heads of the wicked husbandmen.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #27691 01/28/04 03:39 AM
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If I may add a few comments to Joel's. I am LDS also, and while I certainly am not as knowledgeable as Joel, I will try to help where I can. It states in Ephesians:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> And he gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. (Ephesians 4:11-13)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As Joel said, it is uncontestable that a church leadership was set up in the days of Christ. Likewise, today we have the same needs as those people back then. Prophets and apostles are set up today for the same purposes that they were in the New Testament--for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, and for the edifying of the body of Christ.
Just as Paul and the apostles of old guided the saints in their needs and their worries according to the revelation given to them by God, we have apostles today who receive revelation for the benefit of the saints and all the world. I cannot see a time in history where there was a greater need to have prophets and apostles upon the face of the Earth than today.

Re: Mormons #27692 01/28/04 05:02 AM
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Hey Joel, Hi Eric thanks for joining in!


I agree with you both so much in principle and also in fact about the historical church heirarchy and such.

I am pretty confident though, that we are at an impasse with the subtle differences in our theologies.

The only thing I will refute (that won't repeat other posts) is the part about mainstream Christianity. There is and has been change over the last decade. The confines of organized religion are breaking in favor of the biblical model. For example Church oversite is now done more by the faithful than the ones who are unfaithful but have deeper pockets, ie a deacon is less likely to be a suit and tie wearing gentlman making 100k a year and giving 5k and more likely to be someone making 30k a year and tithing) There have been many other changes as well. Bold truth can be heard in many churches not bound by liturgical formats. I grew up Episcopalian and I can tell you they were/are so rigid that on the 5th Sunday of every year the subject matter of the sermon would be the same unwaveringly. In many churches you can hear that sin is bad, I know that sounds ludicrous but in the and earlier you didn't step on peoples toes or hurt tier feelings.... There is yet hope for the body.

So even though Mormonism and I disagree on what I consider are some crucial issues that does not stop us from discussing on an adult level.


God bless ya both!


"I'm part of the fellowship of the unashamed. I have the Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast. I have stepped over the line. The decision has been made - I'm a disciple of HIS.
www.Real-Men.net
Re: Mormons #27693 01/28/04 05:47 AM
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KristiAnn Offline
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33: laugh
Kristi,

did Olaf have any brothers or sisters that you are aware of? When he emigrated to the states did he go alone? I only ask because recently, my wife and I have come in contact with her grandfather's sister in Poland. Her Grandfather emigrated to the US in the 50's and left his family behind. He never really talked about them at all. After he died, we found a letter with a return address in Poland, we found a friend who could speak and write in Polish and sent off a letter on a whim and lo and behold, the address was still in the family. Since that initial contact we've exchanged many letters and learned a lot of family history and been able to trace our ancestry back two more generations on that side.

If you can find any Norwegians over there that are related, I'd be happy to draft a letter and maybe they could help you go a little further. There's only about 75 "Jørgensen's" in the Oslo Area according the Norwegian White Pages online, there's a good shot that you've got a distant cousin that still lives in the area (when Norwegians move out on their own they tend to only move down the street). The LDS geneological center you've worked with may have information regarding extended family. Sometimes in doing geneology we focus too much on going straight back when in reality it might help us to go further if we would weave to the sides a little bit to gather more info.

Also, your family name "Jorgensen" is really "Jørgensen". The "Jø" should be prounouced like the "Eu" in "Europe" so I guess your name is prounounced kind of like "Yurgensen." Some emigration official just took out the "ø" and replaced it with an "o" because we don't have that letter in our alphabet.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thank you so much for replying Joel!!,

I am not sure if my grand father Olaf Jørgensen had any sister's or brother's. I believe he came alonbe as a Merchant Marine, he left Norway in 1917 when he was 17 years old. Thanks for the correct pronouncation of my last name. I never did know how to do this part ~>"ø", thanks so much for giving me this gift Joel!!. If you Private Message me, I can give you more information about my grand father Olaf, I have his social security number, and I know that will help.

Thank you for helping me Joel [Linked Image]. I always appreciate anyone's help!

Sorry to be off topic again everyone. Joel PM please and we talk more laugh .

You Sister forever in Christ,

Re: Mormons #27694 01/28/04 04:04 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Steve:
So even though Mormonism and I disagree on what I consider are some crucial issues that does not stop us from discussing on an adult level. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If I recall correctly, Steve, you were under the misconception that Mormons didn't view Jesus as divine by birth. I hope I've cleared that up? Have I?

Aside from that the three main points of contention that you have with Mormonism are:

1. The possibility of the existence of divine books, that could be considered scripture, outside of the Bible (i.e. The Book of Mormon). In other words, whether or not we can consider the Canon of Holy Scripture to be Open or Closed.

2. The whole thing about becoming god-like - I've pointed to biblical references supporting this doctrine - as the end result of salvation and essentially what it means to become "joint-heirs with Christ."(Romans 8:17)

3. The LDS perception of the trinity as three distincly separate personages who are one in purpose. The main thrust of the LDS understanding coming from Jesus' perception of oneness as described in the Great Intercessoral prayer in John 17.

Is there anything I've missed?

You see here's the thing - The Bible, I contend, contains contradictory statements throughout and is essentially impossible to derive a consistent doctrine from when viewed alone.

Are Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit one in being or are they one in purpose as Jesus desired and prayed for his disciples "that they may be one, as we are." (John 17:11)

Are we saved by grace alone or by a combination of faith and works? To me it's clear we are saved by grace alone and the works are merely a manifestation of our faith with certain works being a necessity - like baptism. I can support that belief from the Bible and you can probably destroy that belief from the Bible.

What is in store for us in the after life? In one place it talks about Heaven and Hell and then Paul talks about being resurrected into glory that is to be compared either to the Sun, the Moon or the Stars. That doesn't sound like Heaven and Hell.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Bible. I read from it daily. However, I can't help but feel that I would be hopelessly lost in the contradictory doctrines if it wasn't for James 1:5
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can ask God what is right and he can sort out the contradictions for me.

That is what Joseph Smith did. His answer was that none of the churches in his day had it right. Just as the Jews at the time of Christ had apostatized from the true practice of their faith to the point where they could crucify their King, the modern religions at the time of Joseph Smith were all in error.

Through Joseph Smith - a prophet equal in stature to Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah or any of the others - the church was restored. Just like the prophets of old he was called to preach to a fallen world the true gospel of Jesus Christ and to restore the true and correct practice of religion as sanctioned by Jesus Christ.

Jesus restored his church through Joseph Smith. Jesus clarified confusing doctrines in the Bible through the Book of Mormon and by restoring living prophets and apostles to the earth to restore and lead his church.
Jesus is the head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and he leads the church directly through revelation to his prophet today.

It's kind of a nice place to be.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #27695 02/13/04 08:28 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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Quick question I've been wondering about lately...

It's a conundrum that I've stumbled upon which I'm sure there is an explanation. As I understand the doctrine of the trinity, Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost are all one being and the different names assigned to them are a mere manifestation of the duties to which they are attending. As I've stated before that's not what Mormons believe but I think it is what mainstream Christianity believes. Mormons believe all that stuff in Bible about Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost being "one" to refer to a oneness in purpose, while they remain three separate beings.

So I'm having trouble reconciling that doctrine with the Doctrine that man cannot see God. As I understand mainstream Christianity, this is one of the biggest problems they have with Joseph Smith -- he claims to have seen God and spoken with him. If I'm not mistaken, mainstream Christianity bases this doctrine in John 1:18 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">which they interpret to mean that No Man can see God because it is Jesus's job to "declare him". Do you see my problem?

If Jesus and God are the same and yet no man can see God -- how do you reconcile the countless individuals that have seen Jesus? I guess you could write off the people that associated with him prior to his death because he was then manifest as a mortal and not in his full glory. But after the resurrection he has shown himself to a whole lotta people, including 500 at one time, in a glorified and resurrected state.

How does that reconcile within the doctrines of mainstream Christianity?


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #27696 03/17/04 02:50 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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Since there hasn't been any play in here for a while I thought I'd post a question.

I initially posted on here to clear up what I saw as misunderstandings regarding the Mormon/LDS faith. I've been as open as possible regarding my answers to questions within this thread and my responses on other threads have been rooted in my understanding of the gospel through my distinctly Mormon colored glasses.

I guess I'm curious to know if anyone's perception of Mormons or Mormonism has changed? Do I sound like what you thought a Mormon would sound like when I post on this thread and others? Or do I sound more like a Biblical Christian who happens to also believe in the Book of Mormon and Modern day Prophets? That's important because(trust me) I'm a pretty mainstream Mormon, and I imagine that what I'd say here is in line with what most Mormons would say as well.

Please respond, I'd really like to know. I'm not looking for converts, I'm looking for acceptance of Mormons as a legitimate, Christian faith. Well, I'd take converts if I got 'em too smash smash tongue


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #27697 03/17/04 08:01 PM
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Jusselin Offline
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Im illitarate and cant understand what yall er talkin bout so i'll just wish yall good luck


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Re: Mormons #27698 03/18/04 05:49 AM
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I must say I have learned a lot about Mormonism from this thread. There was quite a lot to read and i didnt get a chance to read it all. I guess for me the more I read about Mormonism the more I am convicted of my own beliefs. In my own faith I must say there are differences such as I don't believe that there are any other divine books other then the bible itself for it is said in the bible that the bible is closed and finished. As for becoming God-like...there is only one God..the Lord does work in us to change us but we will never become God. Well that's my two cents. I must thank you joel for sharing your beliefs because you did clear some things up for me.


He must become greater; I must become less -John 3:30
Re: Mormons #27699 03/18/04 02:14 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't believe that there are any other divine books other then the bible itself for it is said in the bible that the bible is closed and finished. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've never understood this, the bible never states anywhere within it that it has a monopoly on God's word.

A survey conducted by Barna research in 2001 showed that Mormons are more likely to read the bible weekly than any other Christian faith tradition. With all that Bible reading, you'd think we'd have noticed that it condemns the Book of Mormon. Strangely enough, we haven't.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #27700 03/19/04 09:33 AM
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Hey Bro.

I have learned a few things. Alas though I cannot get through our impasse over those several aforementioned (and beaten nicely to near death wink ) points. It don't stop me from lovin ya and calling you my friend though!

On a personal note I am glad to have made your aquaintance. I had bumped into too many of the "all passion, no patience" champions of Mormonism on the net and was getting quite a poor impression. frown


"I'm part of the fellowship of the unashamed. I have the Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast. I have stepped over the line. The decision has been made - I'm a disciple of HIS.
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Re: Mormons #27701 03/19/04 05:20 PM
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Joel33 Offline
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What? you don't agree with me? eek And here I was assuming that your recent silence in this thread (and Allen's) was a tacit submission to my brilliant reasoning and logic. laugh

I figured you were too busy to respond because you'd been having the missionaries over. I was just waiting for the announcement of your pending baptism into the church. I was even checking out plane ticket prices to Texas for the blessed event. laugh laugh laugh


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #27702 03/19/04 06:05 PM
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Joel, that's a great response. Being the Unconventional one I'm hesitant to remark but also being a big mouth can't resist. I had a Mormon room mate when I first left home. He was/is the only Mormon I knew well. I personally didn't see much if any difference in him than any other Christian. I still don't. Seems to me that there is one God and all who honor Him stand the same chance of salvation. As with the other Christians here, you seem to be a real decent human being that would not purposely do harm to another. That's enough for me to like anybody and I suspect is enough for God to love and welcome anybody to his heavenly home.

Re: Mormons #27703 03/22/04 08:51 PM
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Well I'm glad you all like me.

Next week a widow in my congregation is marrying a Lutheran gentleman. He's quite a nice man and they are both getting on in years and probably marrying more out of a need for companionship than anything else. However, last week (I found out yesterday), the Lutheran Pastor told them that he wouldn't marry them because the woman wasn't a Christian. This woman lost her husband a year and a half ago and has only now begun to find some peace in her life again and most of it is due to the pending nuptials.

What made me most angry was that two weeks ago I attended a funeral conducted by this same Pastor for the Lutheran Mother-in-Law of a different woman in our congregation. At the funeral the Pastor had nothing but nice things to say about the Mormon woman, due to her selfless, compassionate service taking care of her M-i-L for the last few months of her life. He praised her up and down as a wonderful example of what he called "Christian charity".

I'm sorry, but if we're good enough to be considered Christian at a funeral we ought to be good enough to be considered Christian for a wedding as well.

Of course due to the heartache this has caused the woman waiting to get married, I'm feeling decidedly un-Christian toward the Pastor.


I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other— This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! -- Joseph Smith History 1:17
Re: Mormons #27704 03/23/04 02:46 AM
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I don't think your feeling about the Pastor is nearly as unchristian as his insensitivity to this lady. I really hate this feeling of we and they. I guess it has a lot to do with my unconventionalchristian thing. It's a very big part of why I don't like organized religion. Sometimes church going Christians are the least
Christian people around and the leaders of those churches seem to make it okay to be that way. I apologize if this offends anybody here. From what you all let us know about you there isn't a contributor here that I wouldn't consider hanging with. I suspect you would all remain the same even if you weren't chruch goers. But I couldn't attend a church that harbored that sort of Christian behavior. Shame on that man. He doesn't deserve to lead a parade much less lead the souls of his congregation.

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