</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Echo, what does "return" mean to you?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Return means it goes back to where it came from.
But my point is that does not mean it came or existed before the earth was created. In Eden, when God breathed life into Adam, that is when God gave him the spirit.

You are assuming that the spirit had to be given before man was created in Eden. When God gave his spirit to Adam when he breathed life into him, it "came" from God. When Adam died, it "returned" to God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jeremiah 1:5
quote:
________________________________________
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
________________________________________
God says here that he not only knew Jeremiah before he was born, but he "sanctified" him and "ordained" him - all of this was before he was born.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">God is all knowing, he knows the beginning from the end. He can know what we are like, before we even exist. He knows the future, right up till then end of the world. The word says: Before I formed thee. It says "before" not "after"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">. What the spirit of the earth looks like, I don't know. Does it simply mean "blueprint" for lack of a better word?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well I would agree with the "blueprint" definition you used. That is exactly what God means by the word "predestined" a "blueprint" and blueprints are plans of something to be created, not something already in existance.
The same goes with the concept of immortality, I would agree with you then, that all of us, prior to creation in the Garden of Eden, where just a idea or blueprint of what we were to be. But we did not actually exist yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">, the scripture says that he chose us before the foundation of the world. If we didn't exist before the foundation of the world, what exactly was he "choosing"? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He chose us, as in, appointed us to hear the gospel and then go and bear fruit.

BTW, thanks for the advice on pulling quotes.

Echo,

Do you mind me asking if you are affiliated with any particular denomination?

"return" so it's merely a semantics issue. I guess we have to agree to disagree. You cannot return to a place you've never been.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">God is all knowing, he knows the beginning from the end. He can know what we are like, before we even exist. He knows the future, right up till then end of the world. The word says: Before I formed thee. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You cut the scripture off there it actually reads "Before I formed thee in the belly" and is clearly referring to the physical creation of the body. Moreover, God states in that verse that he ordained Jeremiah in this pre-mortal state. Ordination generally refers to some sort of ceremonial laying on of hands or something, not just something God does in his own mind with his perfect foreknowledge.

As for the earth's pre-creation state being a sort of blueprint, the reason I believe it to be a little different from Mankind pre-creation state is that mankind is a sentient being and the earth is not. I don't believe man existed as a blueprint alone, but that we existed as spirits and gaining a body is part of our progression and learning.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He chose us, as in, appointed us to hear the gospel and then go and bear fruit.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He not only chose us, he chose us before the foundation of the world. According to you, at that point in the timeline there was no us - so what was he choosing and how did he do it?

At the end of the day, I believe in a Father in Heaven that I know personally. I know him because I lived with him as a spirit before I was born. He loves me and knows me from the pre-earthly relationship. I hope one day that I can be like him, and I'm grateful that my spirit brother Jesus came to earth to make that possible.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you mind me asking if you are affiliated with any particular denomination? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I belong to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (Wels)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"return" so it's merely a semantics issue. I guess we have to agree to disagree. You cannot return to a place you've never been.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We will have to disagree; the spirit isn't given in premortality. It is given on earth. God sends down his spirit into our hearts, from heaven to earth, we die, and the spirit he sent down and put into our hearts, returns.

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

If we had the spirit before we came to earth, this verse above makes no sense. Clearly we must be born again to receive the spirit.

So yes, we are still in disagreement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> You cut the scripture off there it actually reads "Before I formed thee in the belly" and is clearly referring to the physical creation of the body. Moreover, God states in that verse that he ordained Jeremiah in this pre-mortal state. Ordination generally refers to some sort of ceremonial laying on of hands or something, not just something God does in his own mind with his perfect foreknowledge. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My apologies for cutting off scripture. I just wanted to emphasize the words “before I formed”

The words: “before I formed you in the womb I knew you…” came to Jeremiah while he was on earth, not before. (Jer 1:2) God laid his hands on Jeremiah in 1:9, and in 1:10 God says: “ TODAY I appoint you over nations and kingdoms…”

So the ordaining happened on earth. Ordained means: "to give, appoint, assign"
"To give" is future tense. Sanctified means: "to be set apart" again this is future tense. And formed means: "fashion, form, or make." There is no suggestion in this definition of somthing being created on somthing else.

These things did not happen in premortality, but here on earth.

Premortality, if it were true, would be an extremely important doctrine for us to understand. Would not the Word have said something like: “Before I formed a body to house your spirit…” or “When you were a spirit In heaven I chose to clothe you with a body to progress…” etc?

Premortality is a major foundation of LDS theology. All of LDS doctrine is built on this foundation. i.e. We needed to come to earth to progress into becoming a God ourselves. So if the doctrine of premortality were true, it should be a plain and simple message in the scriptures.

In Genesis: The words “created” and “make” are both similarly defined as: “to produce from nothing, to cause to exist. So if premortality was the correct interpretation, the words “create” and “make” are clearly the wrong words to use because they are then very misleading. “Create” means to produce from nothing, not to produce from something, which is what the doctrine on premortality claims.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Echo said: He not only chose us, he chose us before the foundation of the world.

Joel said: According to you, at that point in the timeline there was no us - so what was he choosing and how did he do it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He was choosing to create people who would love him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

At the end of the day, I believe in a Father in Heaven that I know personally. I know him because I lived with him as a spirit before I was born. He loves me and knows me from the pre-earthly relationship. I hope one day that I can be like him, and I'm grateful that my spirit brother Jesus came to earth to make that possible.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I say this respectfully: How can you know him personally because you lived with him, if you cannot remember premortality? And if progressing from premortality is the whole purpose, why can we not remember it? Seems to me that things would go a whole lot better if we could remember what he was like and what it was like being with him and so forth. What are your thoughts?


.

I just want to add one more thought to my last post:

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

This verse does not say: "No one returns to the Father except through me"


.

Agreed with your first comment below, but it works both ways

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:
This is what always happens in this thread, people try to refute a few of the things I say, but not all.

Allen, The question was, (and I'm paraphrasing) "Did man exist in a spiritual form before he came to this earth."

My answer: Yes

Your answer: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">it was in a place before it was in another place, before it goes back to the original place</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To me that sounds like we agree.

I also agree with you about Job, my point was merely that using the verse Echo used to prove that man didn't exist was inadequate to prove that point.


Look, these debates get fairly large and complex every now and again - Since I'm the only one on the Mormon side, I try to be very direct in answering the question at hand. On a quick re-read of Ephesians 1:4, I see no issues that I would leave out because they are sticky for Mormon doctrine.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless - obviously we aren't, so what is He actually saying here? Is Paul saying God's desire for us has always been righteousness (His perfect will for our lives)? Our free will keeps that from happening, but His grace gives us the ability to move towards it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I couldn't agree more. But the question was about whether or not we existed in a spiritual form prior to our lives on this earth. My answer was, Paul said god knew us and chose us before this world was - so yes, we existed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When scripture says that the spirit returns to God who gave it, that does not mean that he gave it before the world was created. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Echo, what does "return" mean to you?

To me it means to go back to a place you've been before. Is that spin?

Echo, you've done something that I'm getting used to, you respond to a few of the scriptures I bring up because they are easy for you to craft a response to but ignore those that you can't craft a simple response to - ie Jeremiah 1:5

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think you are limiting this to man's understanding. God knows what is going to happen next year, and knew it before He formed the earth. When scripture says that the spirit returns to God who gave it, that's not saying it existed before He created the body He put it in (that's where your leap of faith comes in). The spirit returns to Him, since He created it, otherwise where did it come from? That's not saying it existed before the creation and implantation in the earthly body.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're skipping the second part of the scripture because it's not fitting your theology, I do that sometimes when it hurts too</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, I left out the part of the scripture that wasn't relevant to the initial question.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hehe, the second part is centrally relevant to the initial question... God's desire for us is to do His will, but Jeremiah, like anyone else, could have chosen to not to fulfill His will. God would have perfected His will in another vessel, yes, but the scripture is speaking to God's will for our lives, since the beginning of time. Free will is still there to take us in or out of that will.

Put another way - God chose me to build this site, way before He created me or the earth. I could have chosen to not do it and He would have worked through someone else to complete His will. On the flip side, I could be the person He chose to do this after the first one decided not to

Free will could have caused Jeremiah to completely miss out on God's calling in his life, the calling God knew well before He created the vessel (and the spirit within) to fulfill His will.

when i get to heaven, i do not know, nor do any of us really, whether i will see a seperate God JEsus and Holy SPirit. I do believe i will encounter Jesus specifically. In what form? dont know , dont care. God in form or in essence or in spirit, dont know. Holy Spirit. dont know.
three seperate beings with one purpose RIGHT NOW i guess, in repsect to this world. God is in heaven , Jesus was here and now in heaven and the holy spirit is everywhere, both heaven and earth. still one purpose and one being. Not everything has to be explained in our physical world.for me at least. if it were three separate beings all together probably wouldnt be a big deal to me either way i guess. apologetics can lead to arguments that in some cases just dont matter to a non clergyman.

With regards to angels it is not just written , here are the ranks of angels. they are mentioned throughout scripture. allow me some time to research the specifics, i will post when i have some time to do so.
nab

! Corinthians 15:44-46 "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ;the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual "


This verse clearly points out that the spiritual did NOT come first.


Hey everyone, this question is for Joel alone, okay?

Joel,

I want to see how well you are trained in deception.

I have two sentences below, and they mean different things. Can you tell me what each of them mean?

1)Society is shaped based on the principles and policies of the Government.

2)Society is shaped based on the principles and policies of Government.


.

/smile. So easy yet so complex. /laughs

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel,

I want to see how well you are trained in deception.

I have two sentences below, and they mean different things. Can you tell me what each of them mean?

1)Society is shaped based on the principles and policies of the Government.

2)Society is shaped based on the principles and policies of Government.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have no idea what you are talking about.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">! Corinthians 15:44-46 "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ;the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual "
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This verse and this whole chapter are talking about the resurrection - not creation.

Nabster,

Guess what? We agree. I mean there is still some variation on the particulars, but I would imagine seeing three beings/entities that work with one purpose. Don't you feel all warm and fuzzy inside?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">With regards to angels it is not just written , here are the ranks of angels. they are mentioned throughout scripture. allow me some time to research the specifics, i will post when i have some time to do so.
nab</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'll hold you to that.

Allen </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hehe, the second part is centrally relevant to the initial question... God's desire for us is to do His will, but Jeremiah, like anyone else, could have chosen to not to fulfill His will.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">it is only relevant if the question was about "free-will," and it wasn't. The question was about whether or not we existed as spirits before we came to earth. As for your intepretation of free-will and God's prefect pre-knowledge - I completely agree. Again, all warm and fuzzy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think you are limiting this to man's understanding. God knows what is going to happen next year, and knew it before He formed the earth. When scripture says that the spirit returns to God who gave it, that's not saying it existed before He created the body He put it in (that's where your leap of faith comes in). The spirit returns to Him, since He created it, otherwise where did it come from? That's not saying it existed before the creation and implantation in the earthly body.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess I'm surprised by all the fuss. I mean what's the big deal whether we lived before as spirits with God or not? Does it really make a difference or make me not Christian if I believe that? Frankly, the only people I've had this intense a discussion about pre-existence with is Jehovah's Witnesses - In fact that's why I asked Echo what denomination she/he (which is it by the way) was a part of - I thought she/he was a JW - they use the exact same arguments as Echo was using - it's actually in their little book of "how to win scriptural arguments."


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

If we had the spirit before we came to earth, this verse above makes no sense. Clearly we must be born again to receive the spirit.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can't make this conclusion logically from this scripture. Moreover, LDS theology would indicate that the spirit did have a "birth" so to speak or "creation point" prior to the creation of our bodies. So this scripture does not rule out a belief in a pre-existence.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The words: “before I formed you in the womb I knew you…” came to Jeremiah while he was on earth, not before. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well duh. Of course they did - it just so happens that God is talking about knowing Jeremiah before he came to this earth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">(Jer 1:2) God laid his hands on Jeremiah in 1:9, and in 1:10 God says: “ TODAY I appoint you over nations and kingdoms…”

So the ordaining happened on earth. Ordained means: "to give, appoint, assign" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, "ordained" means: to have already given, to have already appointed, or to have already assigned - you see that little -ed on the end makes it past tense. "Ordain" means: to give, appoint, assign. You cannot define a word that is written in the past tense as having a meaning that implies a future tense - who is that is practiced in the art of deception now?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sanctified means: "to be set apart" again this is future tense.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">actually you are wrong again Sanctified means" to have already been set apart." Sanctify (without the -ed) means "to set apart". </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> And formed means: "fashion, form, or make." There is no suggestion in this definition of somthing being created on somthing else.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">again, formed (with an -ed) is past tense so it actually means to have already fashioned, formed or made. Moreover, I didn't mean to suggest that something is being created on something else. Rather, the LDS doctrine would indicate that a spirit is created and a body is created and when they are united, the body becomes alive.

So you're interpretation of Jer 1:5 is entirely inaccurate. read Jeremiah 1:5

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Before I formed thee in the belly I knew (past tense) thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified (past tense)thee, [and] I ordained (past tense) thee a prophet unto the nations. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Each verb -- "knew" "sanctified" and "ordained" -- is in the past tense, indicating past action - or something that has already taken place.

Let's actually read Jeremiah 1:9 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">this happened after Jeremiah complained in verse 6 saying </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I [am] a child. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So really this is just referring to God putting words in his mouth - not an ordination.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"setting" Jeremiah over the nations may be an ordination, I'm with you there, but I guess, based on God's own words, he ordained (past tense) him before and is "ordaining" him again now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Premortality, if it were true, would be an extremely important doctrine for us to understand. Would not the Word have said something like: “Before I formed a body to house your spirit…” or “When you were a spirit In heaven I chose to clothe you with a body to progress…” etc?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Similarly, if it's so important that there was not pre-existence, why is there no scripture stating, "man did not exist in a spiritual form before I created his earthly body." I'll tell you why there isn't either - because the Bible is inconclusive on this and many other counts. As I normally say in these discussions - both your interpretation and mine are equally valid - what does that mean? It means the Bible is unclear on the matter and the only resolution is to agree to disagree, until the Bible somehow becomes more clear.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In Genesis: The words “created” and “make” are both similarly defined as: “to produce from nothing, to cause to exist. So if premortality was the correct interpretation, the words “create” and “make” are clearly the wrong words to use because they are then very misleading. “Create” means to produce from nothing, not to produce from something, which is what the doctrine on premortality claims.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">wrong - The word Created in Genesis is the Hebrew word "bara" with the "Qal" stem or tense and means (from blueletterbible.org) </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and is generally used when referring to
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
1) of heaven and earth

2) of individual man

3) of new conditions and circumstances

4) of transformations</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Most interesting to me is that is one of the meanings is to "fashion" which does not mean create out of nothing. same with the meaning "shape." Both of these words imply working with existing material.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Echo said: He not only chose us, he chose us before the foundation of the world.

Joel said: According to you, at that point in the timeline there was no us - so what was he choosing and how did he do it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He was choosing to create people who would love him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I may be biased here, but this is at least as big a "leap of faith" as Allen accuses me of.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I say this respectfully: How can you know him personally because you lived with him, if you cannot remember premortality? And if progressing from premortality is the whole purpose, why can we not remember it? Seems to me that things would go a whole lot better if we could remember what he was like and what it was like being with him and so forth. What are your thoughts?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I say I know him because I have come to know him in this life through prayer and the Holy Spirit. As for why not let us remember? Have you ever heard of the saving principle of Faith? We came here, in large part to be tested - to see if we could have faith enough to rely on Christ in overcoming the obstacles placed before us. That's why foreknowledge is hidden from us. To prove our faith.

Allen,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed with your first comment below, but it works both ways </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I couldn't disagree more - I've answered every single accusation or question ever put forth in this thread - I even occassionally read the whole thread over just to make sure I haven't overlooked anything. I have never dodged or avoided any issue in this thread since I came aboard over two years ago.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">it was in a place before it was in another place, before it goes back to the original place</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> When scripture says that the spirit returns to God who gave it, that's not saying it existed before He created the body He put it in (that's where your leap of faith comes in). The spirit returns to Him, since He created it, otherwise where did it come from? That's not saying it existed before the creation and implantation in the earthly body.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">which one Allen? They are not the same. Yes, God did create our spirits - without question he created them. I simply believe he created them and then some time passed and we learned a few things before we came to inhabit our bodies. That's all.

THIS POST IS FOR JOEL ONLY OK EVERYBODY.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:
________________________________________
Echo said: Joel,

I want to see how well you are trained in deception.

I have two sentences below, and they mean different things. Can you tell me what each of them mean?

1)Society is shaped based on the principles and policies of the Government.

2)Society is shaped based on the principles and policies of Government.
________________________________________
Joel said: I have no idea what you are talking about.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, maybe I did not explain that very well?

As you know, Christians need to be well trained in deception because the devil prowls around seeking whom he can devour by lies and deception.

These two sentences are the same except one has one word missing. With the one word missing, the whole meaning of the sentence changes. Go back and read each sentence and tell me what they mean when you look at each and every word.

Sheep need to have protection so they won't be harmed in any way.

.

Nice implication Echo, i guess I'm being decieved.

Let's see, the word "the" is missing, that article simply makes the sentence more precise by referring to a singular government. There are other flaws like missing commas and the fact that Government shouldn't be capitalized, but aside from that I really don't care.

Look that's not really what this forum is about, is it?

Heh Joel, Not implicating anything, sorry you took it that way, but I think it is important for all of us to beware, don't you? You and I both need to watch out for the traps of the devil, wouldn't you agree? You and I are not enemies, Satan is both your enemy and mine. Perhaps you have some sort of perception that Christians are the enemy and out to attack you? Is that what you are on the defensive? I just want to let you know that You and I are on the same side as far as wanting to know the truth. That is why it is important for us to discuss our differences in a respectful way, not attacking one another but sharing our differences and discussing them. So I hope that helps you to see that I am trying to reach out to you with Christian love and in no way am I trying to offend you or belittle you or be disrespectful towards you. OK?

Christians are not taught that you are the enemy.
So please keep that in mind when reading my posts. It is not "you" verses "me", it is "You and I" verses "Satan". Okay?


Actually my question is relevant to this forum but I haven't got there yet :-)

It looks like you got the right answer, which is really good, but I am not absolutely positive, so could you clarify that a bit for me? Tell me what each sentence specifically means? Forget the capital letters.

.

"the Government" would make the sentence refer to how a singular government's policies and principles shape the society it governs as well as the international community it exists in.

"Government" with no "the" would simply make the sentence more general - in a sense, any government's policies and principles will influence the respective societies they govern.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:

Allen </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hehe, the second part is centrally relevant to the initial question... God's desire for us is to do His will, but Jeremiah, like anyone else, could have chosen to not to fulfill His will.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">it is only relevant if the question was about "free-will," and it wasn't. The question was about whether or not we existed as spirits before we came to earth. As for your intepretation of free-will and God's prefect pre-knowledge - I completely agree. Again, all warm and fuzzy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think you are limiting this to man's understanding. God knows what is going to happen next year, and knew it before He formed the earth. When scripture says that the spirit returns to God who gave it, that's not saying it existed before He created the body He put it in (that's where your leap of faith comes in). The spirit returns to Him, since He created it, otherwise where did it come from? That's not saying it existed before the creation and implantation in the earthly body.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess I'm surprised by all the fuss. I mean what's the big deal whether we lived before as spirits with God or not? Does it really make a difference or make me not Christian if I believe that? Frankly, the only people I've had this intense a discussion about pre-existence with is Jehovah's Witnesses - In fact that's why I asked Echo what denomination she/he (which is it by the way) was a part of - I thought she/he was a JW - they use the exact same arguments as Echo was using - it's actually in their little book of "how to win scriptural arguments."

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not sure if it matters to me either, I was more interested in discussing the subject itself, thassall

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:

Allen,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed with your first comment below, but it works both ways </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I couldn't disagree more - I've answered every single accusation or question ever put forth in this thread - I even occassionally read the whole thread over just to make sure I haven't overlooked anything. I have never dodged or avoided any issue in this thread since I came aboard over two years ago.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">it was in a place before it was in another place, before it goes back to the original place</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> When scripture says that the spirit returns to God who gave it, that's not saying it existed before He created the body He put it in (that's where your leap of faith comes in). The spirit returns to Him, since He created it, otherwise where did it come from? That's not saying it existed before the creation and implantation in the earthly body.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">which one Allen? They are not the same. Yes, God did create our spirits - without question he created them. I simply believe he created them and then some time passed and we learned a few things before we came to inhabit our bodies. That's all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OK, if I think you didn't answer fully, I'll post it, I think about it while reading, but forget by the time I get to the bottom of your posts

As for your last comment, where do you get those beliefs from, if they aren't in the Bible? If it shouldn't be such a big deal (as you posted earlier above), then why do you believe it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As for your last comment, where do you get those beliefs from, if they aren't in the Bible? If it shouldn't be such a big deal (as you posted earlier above), then why do you believe it?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">obviously, I think that they are in the Bible to a limited extent or I wouldn't have posted the scriptural citations that I believe indicate a pre-existence of the human spirit.

If you accept the first few scriptures I posted about it as evidence that there is a pre-existence, then you can see it in many other scriptures.

As I've explained, we Mormons probably have a different take on 'what an angel is' than most - just because it's different doesn't make us unchristian. I think I summarized it earlier in the thread a few pages back. We believe angels to be the spirits of those who belong to this earth, that have either not yet recieved a body or who have passed on and are awaiting the resurrection. Certainly, as with any word, angel has many meanings - this is only one of them. There are other connotations in which we would refer to an angel and mean something different than what I just said, but they aren't germaine to this discussion.

So if you believe in a pre-existence and you can accept that angels could possibly - in some circumstances refer to a spirit awaiting a body, then all of the references about the "war in heaven" have a little more meaning.

However, one of the things that happens when you have a living prophet and you believe that God is still revealing truth through that prophet is that you may end up with a more detailed doctrine. Most of what we believe about the pre-existence is contained in the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. I only use the Bible verses I've used to the extent that they offer some support to the doctrine.

nabster,d

Please try to keep the directly anti-mormon stuff in the thread where it belongs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You struggle with the BIble's being 100% yet you claim Mormon doctrine to be so.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i don't struggle with it, I know Mormon doctrine is 100% correct and I know the Bible is not. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You search the word for explanation of a scriptures meaning , but look for a way to make it incomplete as opposed to complete.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, I search the heavens for meaning and only use the Bible to appease Christians who will accept nothing short of that from a Mormon but don't offer up the same Biblical evidence for what they are saying. I do love the Bible however and enjoy reading it while enlightened by the Holy Spirit so that the many opaque doctrines, contradictions, and intentionally misleading parts are made clear. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> You and I cant comprehend the trinity yet we are trying to understand each and every piece of the mystery of God's word.
I am 39. Not in another 100 years could i learn everything within the scriptures.Nor can you my friend. Nor Billy Graham, nor Brigham Young, Not even Wesley or Clavin or Moody etc.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joseph Smith once said that you could learn more by gazing into the eternities for five minutes that you could in a lifetime of study. Sounds like you and he agree. Look Joseph was a prophet who saw God and Jesus Christ, when he saw them, they were separate individuals. At that point in our history the most commonly accepted doctrine was that they were not. He gazed on the eternities for 5 minutes and knew more than centuries of theologians could debate over. Revealed truth is always more reliable than truth that is reached through debate and discussion and sometimes even democratic process. The Books of the Bible were not written by committe, but they were translated by committee and committees stink.

That leads me to another question you asked in another thread. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Did Joseph Smith translate or transliterate the Egyptian plates? and how do we KNOW he is 100%?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joseph Smith had no knowledge of any ancient languages at the time he recieved the record he translated into the Boook of Mormon. The word translation or to call him a translator is almost inaccurate. God, who originally inspired the writers of the Book of Mormon with what they should write, spoke to Joseph through various means and did the translation work for him. Joseph just repeated what God told him was on the pages he translated. So yes, I think God is probably the best translator ever since he knows every language and was in a sense the original author.

DId he give Joseph Smith the "words" so to speak for the book of Mormon as well? Or was it inspired by God but not written so to speak(again)?
BTW All es klah

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, "ordained" means: to have already given, to have already appointed, or to have already assigned - you see that little -ed on the end makes it past tense. "Ordain" means: to give, appoint, assign. You cannot define a word that is written in the past tense as having a meaning that implies a future tense - who is that is practiced in the art of deception now?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, but in the sense of knowing in advance, in the sense of predestination. Clearly the scripture says "TODAY..."(Jer 1:10) We must take it in context.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We came here, in large part to be tested - to see if we could have faith enough to rely on Christ in overcoming the obstacles placed before us. That's why foreknowledge is hidden from us. To prove our faith.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The LDS teaching teaches you to rely on faith in Christ for overcoming obstacles as a test, whereas Christianity teaches to rely on faith in Christ and his love for us. And his love is this: overcoming all the obstacles for us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the Government" would make the sentence refer to how a singular government's policies and principles shape the society it governs as well as the international community it exists in.

"Government" with no "the" would simply make the sentence more general - in a sense, any government's policies and principles will influence the respective societies they govern.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It appears you have the right answer, but I just want to make sure that I understand your answer correctly.
Do you mean that the sentence with the "the" means the present and current Government, and the sentence without the "the" means all ongoing Governments and not just the current Government?

.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, "ordained" means: to have already given, to have already appointed, or to have already assigned - you see that little -ed on the end makes it past tense. "Ordain" means: to give, appoint, assign. You cannot define a word that is written in the past tense as having a meaning that implies a future tense - who is that is practiced in the art of deception now?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, but in the sense of knowing in advance, in the sense of predestination. Clearly the scripture says "TODAY..."(Jer 1:10) We must take it in context.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are right, Jer 1:10 says "today" but Jeremiah 1:5, which is the verse with the word "ordained" in it, is clearly past tense.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The LDS teaching teaches you to rely on faith in Christ for overcoming obstacles as a test, whereas Christianity teaches to rely on faith in Christ and his love for us. And his love is this: overcoming all the obstacles for us.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">this is just a semantic point. I suspect that we actually agree about this.

If you say "the government" you have to be referring to the government which you are a citizen of. "government" is vague and general and can refer to any government past, present, future, domestic, and foreign.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:
nabster,d

Please try to keep the directly anti-mormon stuff in the thread where it belongs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You struggle with the BIble's being 100% yet you claim Mormon doctrine to be so.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i don't struggle with it, I know Mormon doctrine is 100% correct and I know the Bible is not. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You search the word for explanation of a scriptures meaning , but look for a way to make it incomplete as opposed to complete.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, I search the heavens for meaning and only use the Bible to appease Christians who will accept nothing short of that from a Mormon but don't offer up the same Biblical evidence for what they are saying. I do love the Bible however and enjoy reading it while enlightened by the Holy Spirit so that the many opaque doctrines, contradictions, and intentionally misleading parts are made clear. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> You and I cant comprehend the trinity yet we are trying to understand each and every piece of the mystery of God's word.
I am 39. Not in another 100 years could i learn everything within the scriptures.Nor can you my friend. Nor Billy Graham, nor Brigham Young, Not even Wesley or Clavin or Moody etc.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joseph Smith once said that you could learn more by gazing into the eternities for five minutes that you could in a lifetime of study. Sounds like you and he agree. Look Joseph was a prophet who saw God and Jesus Christ, when he saw them, they were separate individuals. At that point in our history the most commonly accepted doctrine was that they were not. He gazed on the eternities for 5 minutes and knew more than centuries of theologians could debate over. Revealed truth is always more reliable than truth that is reached through debate and discussion and sometimes even democratic process. The Books of the Bible were not written by committe, but they were translated by committee and committees stink.

That leads me to another question you asked in another thread. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Did Joseph Smith translate or transliterate the Egyptian plates? and how do we KNOW he is 100%?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joseph Smith had no knowledge of any ancient languages at the time he recieved the record he translated into the Boook of Mormon. The word translation or to call him a translator is almost inaccurate. God, who originally inspired the writers of the Book of Mormon with what they should write, spoke to Joseph through various means and did the translation work for him. Joseph just repeated what God told him was on the pages he translated. So yes, I think God is probably the best translator ever since he knows every language and was in a sense the original author. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wow, never thought I'd see this blunt a post from a mormon - explains a lot, none of it in a positive light.

mormons have a 100% grasp on the truth, ear and favor of God, us Christians don't have a chance unless we read the bom and pray to god and ask if it's true



The previous 60 pages were summed up in that one post.