hehe

Have you read any of this topic besides the post previous to your own? I am responding to what Joel said, and not in any way disrespectful to what or how he said it - notice the quote from him followed by me response to it? Nabster had some very valid questions regarding the background of mormonism and the symbology of it, Joel responded and I responded to his response - it's what this whole forum is about - communication.

ah mouse, it is good to see you post.
Joel, is a very mature Mormon and strong in his belief, likely better at defending his faith more than most Mormons or christians....you need not worry bout yer boy Joel33.
Funny though how you always take up for thge NON CHRISTian stance.....
maybe you are the devil worshipper

Everywhere I go these days its christs this and Christians that. Back in grade school they always taught us that we would eb persecuted for preaching Christanity. Well, it is the 180 degree opposite. the Christans now actually persecute the non-Christians. When someone of anorther faith dares to say that they are right, the Christians attack them and call them wrong and such.

I'm not saying that this happens here but I have been called evil and such by so many christians that I can see how Joel must feel. Its only human nature for questioning of ones faith to kick in after such posts.

We today live in a very Christian faith based society. I'm not saying its how they act but it seems like "the cool thing to do" is to say that your a believer. even at my work, they are against me because I am not a Christian. Just because someone doesn't want to believe what you do makes them wrong? Are they any worse of a person because of it? I have met "witches" that were far nicer and more pleasent to be around then the majority of bible-thumpers. Does this mean that I cannot like her merely because she doesn't believe in Christ? Why should people have to go around basing their friendships on people's religion? I have friends that are both jewish and aryan. I have friends that are both black and from the klan. Should I choose to be friends with one group or the other just because I agree (or disagree) with them on some of their views? No.

Allen, some of the stuff you have said sounds very critical of the Mormon faith. And Nabster, if I was a devil worshiper that would require my belief in God. Because God supposedly made the devil. And seeing that I believe that we choose to do right and wrong, worshiping something that would require me to do wrong would be almost as mindless as me being a Christian.

nabster,

Can you tell me exactly what "Christ is God incarnate" means? I've always understood it to be part of the "God and Christ are the same being" stuff. Is that right?

If that is correct, then I think that is where the real division lies. I mean, you've got Joseph Smith saying that he saw God and Jesus Christ and they were two separate beings. No one who accepts the Catholic version of the Trinity is going to be too happy with a church that preaches that God and Christ are separate.

As for this statement of yours </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And quite frankly is incorrect....scripturally</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">prove it!

I think the scriptural record is inconclusive as it regards Satan and Jesus' relationship. So we know that Lucifer is a fallen Angel - do we know what an angel is? Is there a scripture in the Bible that defines what an angel is? No.

So as I've said before, Mormons believe that the term "angel" simply means "messenger of the Lord." Mormons belive, due to modern day revelation, that there are two classes of heavenly beings who minister for the Lord: those who are spirits and those who have bodies of flesh and bone. Spirits are those beings who either have not yet obtained a body of flesh and bone (unembodied), or who have once had a mortal body and have died, and are awaiting the resurrection (disembodied). Ordinarily the word angel means those ministering persons who have a body of flesh and bone, being either resurrected from the dead (reembodied), or else translated, as were Enoch, Elijah, etc. Hence the Angel Moroni who revealed to Joseph the location of the Golden Plates.

Only a few angels are mentioned by name see: Dan. 8: 16; Dan. 9: 21; Dan. 10: 13, 21; Dan. 12: 1; Luke 1: 19, 26. Again, through latter-day revelation we learn that the angel Michael is Adam, and the angel Gabriel is Noah.

In the N.T. there are many references to the ministry of angels, but no clear statement as to their nature or their relation to mankind in general. Angels attended on our Lord throughout his life on earth. The scriptures speak of the devil’s angels. Mormons believe these are spirits who followed Lucifer and were thrust out in the war in heaven and cast down to the earth.

Taking out what Mormons believe about angels from modern revelation through prophets, the Bible is in fact fairly silent on angels, and their nature. So how do you know what it means to be a fallen angel? Couldn't it just as easily refer to a spirit destined for this world who threw it all away by rebelling against god? There is nothing to go on in the NT and OT to support either point. All that we know is Lucifer was once in Heaven as was Jesus before his birth as were we all.

I can see that you'd have a problem if Jesus and God are supposed to be the same person, but if they are separate and Jesus and God are one only to the extent that Jesus perfectly reflects his father's will through his own actions, then there really shouldn't be a problem.

Allen, I don't think I'm being unfair at all. I simply don't believe God would give you an answer unless in your heart you were willing to follow it. I don't believe that even if God said "Yes, Allen you should be a Mormon." that you would do it. Because of that, I don't believe you approach the question sincerely. I don't believe you can. And really that's fine.

Your claims about the pentagram are not substantiated by the written record. As I said in my previous post, the very first time that the pentagram became associated with the occult was in the 1800's. It is part of the historical record. If you can find a source in print prior to the 1800's then fine, I'll have to buy what you say. But even then, it's not as if Brigham Young and Joseph Smith had the internet at their disposal and could cruise around looking up satanic symbols to use on their temple.

nabster, as for why not use christian symbols - as the novel of information I posted above points out, at the time of Joseph Smith, the pentagram was still considered a Christian symbol. Moreover, who's to say that Joseph Smith didn't use symbols associated with early Christianity? Who's to say that what exists in our temple ceremonies didn't exist in early Christianity. in fact, the apocryphal gospels that I cited earlier seem to indicate that LDS temple ceremonies do indeed have their origins in early Christianity. Need I remind you.

According to the gnostic gospels which were only discovered after Joseph Smith instituted the temple ceremonies. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Gnostics (from the Greek word meaning knowledge) believed they were recipients of a special knowledge, usually through revelation or revelatory (apocalyptic) texts that contained secret rituals and teachings. These so-called gnostics (“knowers”) were hated and persecuted by other Christians. Most of their records were eventually destroyed by their enemies, and the only accounts of their beliefs available for centuries were those compiled and passed on by their orthodox opponents.

Within the past century, however, a number of documents dating back to the early Christian era have been found where the gnostics buried or lost them, but the diversity and strangeness of these significant finds have not brought scholars to any real agreement regarding the gnostics’ identity or beliefs.

Second Jeu, one such text found in the mid-nineteenth century and published in the early part of this century, begins with the resurrected Jesus gathering the Twelve Apostles and their wives about him to explain the mysteries that would give them access to the heavenly treasury of light. The lengthy discourse is quite complex, containing references to special seals and names, altars, sacral food, linen garments, wreathed crowns, and other liturgical subjects. It is understandable that Christian theologians, who could find no similarities to these types of material in the New Testament, would be very suspicious and dubious as to the gnostic claim of association with apostolic Christianity.

In 1946 some Arab peasants in upper Egypt discovered a gnostic library containing some 53 works bound in 13 volumes, totaling more than 1,000 pages of papyri. This library, named the Nag ‘Hammâdi Library (after a village near the site of the discovery), contains a number of works purported to be apostolic in origin. There are gospels of Philip and Thomas, writings of James (the brother of Jesus) and John, and a revelation of Peter, just to name a few. There are also a number of writings associated with the names of ancient patriarchs, such as Adam, Seth, Shem, and Melchizedek.

The biblical Book of Genesis invited more gnostic speculation than any other book, and many Nag ‘Hammâdi writings are either a commentary on or speculation about the creation of the world, the Garden of Eden episode, and related topics. In the Apocalypse (revelation) of Adam, Adam relates to his son Seth the experience of the fall, when Adam and Eve were deprived of the glory that they had once possessed. Then Adam explains to Seth how three men appeared and instructed Adam and Eve regarding the future history of the earth and the salvation of men. The Paraphrase of Shem then recounts a vision of Shem in which he is shown the heavens in an ecstatic journey, followed by an account of the creation of the earth.

A number of the Nag ‘Hammâdi works are dialogues between the resurrected Jesus and his disciples. Jesus is often portrayed in them as a heavenly being who descended to an evil material world controlled by evil rulers in order to grant salvation to fallen man through the bestowal of secret knowledge (gnosis). This secret knowledge is comprised of both doctrinal teachings and rituals or ordinances associated with those teachings. Gnostics believed that one had to receive this gnosis before he could pass by the guards of the various heavens on his return journey to God.

In the Apocryphon of John (the secret writing of John) the Savior reveals to John knowledge necessary for salvation, culminating with an explanation of the various destinies of men and an account of Jesus’ visit to the spirit world after his death. The Gospel of Philip contains references to the importance of eternal marriage for salvation. The secrecy of the teachings that give salvation is stressed in virtually all the documents.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just to review, these gnostic gospels refer to the following aspects of early christian life:

"containing references to special seals and names, altars, sacral food, linen garments, wreathed crowns, and other liturgical subjects."

"Adam relates to his son Seth the experience of the fall, when Adam and Eve were deprived of the glory that they had once possessed. Then Adam explains to Seth how [b]three men appeared and instructed Adam and Eve regarding the future history of the earth and the salvation of men. The Paraphrase of Shem then recounts a vision of Shem in which he is shown the heavens in an ecstatic journey, followed by an account of the creation of the earth."

"Gnostics believed that one had to receive this gnosis before he could pass by the guards of the various heavens on his return journey to God."

"The Gospel of Philip contains references to the importance of eternal marriage for salvation."

Everything I've bolded is almost a direct reference to something we do in the temple today.

We recieve a new name

We wear sacred garments

We kneel at the altar

We wear something like a wreathed crown

We learn about the fall of man

We learn about three men teaching Adam and Eve

We learn about the creation of the earth

We learn things that allow us to pass the guards of heaven on our return journey

We learn of the importance of eternal marriage.

Now, did Joseph Smith use or did he not use symbology typical of early christianity. According to the gnostic gospels he clearly did - not only did he use that symbology but at the time Joseph Smith restored the Temple ceremony, these documents had never existed - and when they are discovered what do they do - they add credibility. In fact almost every discovery since 1900 related to early christianity has granted more and more credibility to Joseph Smith and his version thereof.

In my opinion, this is also part of the reason Christians dislike Mormons. Not only do we believe differently, but the historical record actually backs us up.

I've mentioned before the fact that third century christians believed in salvation by deification - also a Mormon doctrine that Joseph Smith restored. When he restored it, people thought it was heretical and some still do. But as we discover documents of antiquity, we find that Joseph Smith wasn't the first to preach it, rather it was a central tenet of early Christianity.

It was lost and now it's been restored.

Mouse - Allen and nabster are right - don't worry about me, I'm alright. Worry about them.

Your religion was founded by a man who repeatedly wound up in jail, your foundation is set upon the fact that this guy was given special tablets that he happened to remember and oddly enough no one else saw this and the angel took the tablets back from him so now no one else can see them....and most of the information my SS teacher gave us came right off the LDS web site

A Comparison Between Christian Doctrine
and Mormon Doctrine

"Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it and see if it will stand the test"
(Brigham Young, May 18, 1873, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 16, page 46.)

Following is a comparison between Christian doctrine and Mormon doctrine. It will become very obvious that Mormonism does not agree with the Bible. In fact, Mormonism has simply used the same words found in Christianity and redefined them. But with a proper understanding of what Mormonism really teaches, you will be able to see past those definitions into the real differences between Christianity and Mormonism.
The difference is the difference between eternal life and damnation.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Topic GOD

Christians...There is only one God (Isaiah 43:11; 44:6,8; 45:5)

Mormons..."And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3)

Christians...God has always been God (Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 57:15)

Mormons...."God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345

Christians...God is a spirit without flesh and bones (John 4:24; Luke 24:39)

Mormons..."The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22. Compare with Alma 18:26-27; 22:9-10)
"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">WOW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Topic Trinity

Christians... The Trinity is the doctrine that there is only one God in all the universe and that He exists in three, eternal, simultaneous person: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Mormons...The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Really?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Topic Jesus
Christians...Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23)

Mormons...
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115)
"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine," by Bruce McConkie, p. 547)

Christians...
Jesus is the eternal Son. He is second person of the Trinity. He has two natures. He is God in flesh and man (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2;9) and the creator of all things (Col. 1:15-17)

Mormons...Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation. (Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Topic Holy Spirit

Christians... The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. He is not a force. He is a person. (Acts 5:3-4; 13:2)

Mormons... Mormonism distinguishes between the Holy Spirit (God's presence via an essence) and the Holy Ghost (the third god in the Mormon doctrine of the trinity).
"He [the Holy Ghost] is a being endowed with the attributes and powers of Deity, and not a mere force, or essence (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 144)

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Topic Salvation


Christians... Salvation is the forgiveness of sin and deliverance of the sinner from damnation. It is a free gift received by God's grace (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 6:23) and cannot be earned (Rom. 11:6).


Mormons... Salvation has a double meaning in Mormonism: universal resurrection and . . .
"The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79.

Christians... Salvation (forgiveness of sins) is not by works (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 4:5; Gal. 2:21)

Mormons... "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It Gets Better

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Topic Bile

Christians...The inspired inerrant word of God (2 Tim. 3:16). It is authoritative in all subjects it addresses.

Mormons... "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. . ." 8th Article of Faith of the Mormon Church.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is only a sample of many of the differences between Christianity and Mormonism. As you can see, they are quite different doctrines. God cannot be uncreated and created at the same time. There cannot be only one God and many gods at the same time. The Trinity cannot be one God in three persons and three gods in an office known as the Trinity, etc. These teachings are mutually exclusive.
This is important because faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed. Is the Mormon god the real one? Or, is the God of historic and biblical Christianity the real one?
Mormonism is obviously not the biblical version of Christianity. It is not Christian and Mormons serve a different god than do the Christians -- a god that does not exist. Paul talks about this in Gal. 4:8, "when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods." Only the God of the Bible exists. There are no others. Mormonism puts its faith in a non-existent god. Joel your either being lied to, or your lying to us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by SenorElMouse:

Joel man, you have put up with so many attacks right here. This probally has some effect on your faith. But listen to me man, iof you believe that you are truely right, never give up. Don't second guess yourself. If this is what you believe, which it definately appears that it is, then you stick with it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I trust that Joel will never second guess himself...ats what i admire about him, honestly

Juss,

I hope you realize that everything you posted above has been discussed in here ad nauseum. I've answered every question, honestly and fully.

I do not flinch at the Mormon Doctrine that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are separate beings with one purpose. I feel I can prove that from the Bible.

I do not flinch at the Mormon Doctrine that God progressed to his status as a God.

I do not flinch at the Mormon Doctrine that the Bible has errors in its translation.

I do not flinch at the prospect of Jesus being created by natural means - and by that I don't mean sex, I mean the union of egg and sperm creating an embryo. If scientists can manage that, I'm certain that God can as well.

It is not obvious that Mormonisim isn't Biblical. If it was obvious there wouldn't be any Mormons as I doubt most Christians have read the Bible as much or more than most Mormons. I think you can tell that I know it inside and out can't you?

As for the topic "Bile" I have no comment (seriously, that was only a joke about the spelling error).

I've read every book, not just the quotation, that was cited above. I know my religion, and I dare say that I know it better than your SS teacher (would that be Hitler's SS by the way?)

I will go over each and every one of these things in full after the weekend, I'll be in San Francisco on Business for a few days so I won't have time before Tuesday. When I get back there will be more information than anyone wants.

Juss, I have not been lied to and I am not a liar. If you want to ask questions about my religion and debate scriptural interpretation, then fine. Don't call me a liar. I find nothing more offensive than having my personal integrity attacked, especially by someone who I've been more than patient and tolerant with over the years on this board. Your actions are combative and contentious, not Christian.

At the end of the day, I sit back and chuckle. This debate is unending. Every time I come with evidence that Mormonism is closer to Early Christianity than anyone thinks, those posts are ignored and more attacks are launched.

Take my last post prior to this. I've posted the information about gnostic Christian practices and their similarities to Mormon temple practices twice now - and what do I get? More attacks on different subjects. If I had time or energy I would go through this thread and document the countless times this has happened. When confronted with the indefeatable, you try to find something new. In fact, I'm the only one in this thread that has answered each and every challenge. You may disagree with my interpretation (nabster) but I've never backed away from or ignored a question.

none of you are evil, your all seeking! thank the lord!, keep searching ( thats what my dad always says about the lord! ) rock on freinds!

INCARNATE - Embodied in human form; personified.

as if you didnt know. silly rabbit.


Quote joel
I think the scriptural record is inconclusive as it regards Satan and Jesus' relationship. So we know that Lucifer is a fallen Angel - do we know what an angel is? Is there a scripture in the Bible that defines what an angel is? No.
end quote.

The last of the nine orders of angels. From the highest to the lowest in rank, the orders are: seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominations or dominions, virtues, powers, principalities, archangels, and angels.
literally they are in ranks -
malakh - meaning messengers.

BTW - how is noah, gabriel and adam, michael? and where in the BIble is this taught. I believe as the BIble states that man is created a little above the angels and they are not the ssme in creation or in form or in function. angels minister to man.i can back both statements up with Biblical scripture , but dont have em from memory right this second.forgive.


on a different topic a bout attack....
Mormonism teaches the same intolerance and the same "you are in a cult " kind of thing.

Joseph Smith said, "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . ." (Joseph Smith, "History of the Church, Vol. 1, page 5-6.)

Brigham Young said, "But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong." (Brigham Young, "Journal of Discourses," Vol. 2, page 171. - 1855)
The Book of Mormon says, "And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth" (1 Nephi 14:10).


Joseph Fielding Smith said, "Again, following the death of his apostles, apostasy once more set in, and again the saving principles and ordinances of the gospel were changed to suit the conveniences and notions of the people. Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." ("Doctrines of Salvation," page 266.)

moving right along Joel33...here is some reasoning and pretty darn good reasoning i might add...


Take for example in Mormonism they teach that all souls preexisted as angels that incarnate on earth (much like Hinduism but more cosmic) It is these that have an opportunity to progress to become Gods over their own planets. They believe that Michael the arch-angel is the ancient of days became Adam, the first man on earth. Michael the archangel is Adam. Yet in their writings Adam was a God. If Michael is Adam then when he fell into sin, he became like all the angels that followed the devil and is actually an enemy of God. To the Mormons Adam fell upward not backward, it was a blessing not a curse. He was able to be like God, who happens to be man.

They believe Noah is the arch-angel Gabriel (Joseph Smith taught this) he is next to Adam in the priesthood. (church news mar. 12 1994) Luke says it was Gabriel that appeared to Mary and Zecharias. (Doctrine and Covenants 27:7). Did Noah come back from the dead and visit him? Mormons claim Jesus is also the Spirit brother of Lucifer another angel. It is this Jesus that the Mormons worship and hear from. They also believe that we all were spirit children of Elohim, angels in our pre-existent life in heaven.

The only angel the Bible writes about that wanted to become as God is Satan. We are told specifically not to worship angels in Col.1:18. Obviously the early church had to address this problem. The appearance of an angel can be awesome and cause fear. John The apostle mistakenly fell down to worship this creature as recorded in Rev.22:8-9. He is told not to do that, but to worship God only. Mormons worship a God who was a man who previously before that was an angel (Spirit child as they like to put it). In either case it is idolatry. Since they are not worshipping the eternal creator but an angel who incarnated becomes a god from formerly being an exalted man.

What say you Joel? From your posts and this summary(not mine just found it in some research)
seems pretty dead on accurate. It does offer some clarity .

Your Jesus is different than my Jesus. From the core of it's theology. WHen you define in detail who Jesus is and then i define it as well. We differ in concept.period.
nabster

btw, all the references to old writings an other books found, etc. do not back any other religious or historical data, such as the BIble. they offer a different and unprovable and undocumented second party verification.

In my reading so far of the ook of Thomas from the Nag Hammadi....I can understand why it was left out of scripture. He recounts many sayings of Christ, innacurately, on some, and some of it is just plain bizarre. And no doubt some will contradict what Christ actually said.
strange stuff.
gnostic christianity is mystical and a lot like Kabbalah and some othe mystical religions of today and history, it is not the true church and does give credence to using the pentagram as being of the early church. the seal of Solomon was in fact the star of David not a 5 pointed star. and furthermore, as much as the Mormon Church has changed over the years, WHT NOT GET RID OF A SYMBOL UNDERDSTOOD BY COUNTLESS MILLIONS TO BE SATANIC IN BOTH ORIGIN AND CURRENT MEANING? for cryin out loud, cant your prophets see the problem here? ahem, sorry bout that.
the little paragraph about cant a fallen angel be a soul who was destined earth anyway thing, out there Joel. what is an angel , what do they do? theough out the BIble it tells what they do and what they have charge over.
As an interesting side note most all of false religions today(cults) were started by a visiting angel claiming revelation....a demonic force mixing truth with lies.
My eyes are crossing and i am doen for now.
i go to bed smarter than before, research is good. it is also shoring up my belief that Mormonism is not the true Church of Jesus Christ.
BTW, WHy arent you called the church of latter day saints OF JESUS CHRIST instead of the church ofjesus christ OF LATTER DAY SAINTS?

read this...it takes abit, b ut it is historical and factual. with notes. and it is right on the money.http://www.gnosis.org/ahp.htm
naBSTEr

Joel I dont need you to clarify any thing that I posted It speaks for its self ...if you ask me its pretty clear no one here needs any more of your well rounded lawyer tactics....in other words we all know you can twist and bend things to try and find common ground with us christians but in the end mormonism is in NO WAY christianity and in EVERY WAY Mormonism is a cult...end of story....I posted the fact you can read em and decide for yourself what you think..

You hypocrite. You expect Joel and everyone else to listen to what you have to say and yet you refuse to even think about their ideas?

So let me get this strait: Joel's defence about his beliefs are "lawyer tactics" while your defence about your religion is "holy and just". Hmmm. For you wanting him to be open minded you seemed to be very close-minded. Time to open up my topic at last.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by SenorElMouse:
You hypocrite. You expect Joel and everyone else to listen to what you have to say and yet you refuse to even think about their ideas?

So let me get this strait: Joel's defence about his beliefs are "lawyer tactics" while your defence about your religion is "holy and just". Hmmm. For you wanting him to be open minded you seemed to be very close-minded. Time to open up my topic at last. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hold up bro...I am not asking Joel to convert and no one has to listen to what I have said because what I posted is what Joels leaders have said including his great granpappy Joe Smith...So none of that is opinion its all facts...I listed titles and page numbers as Joel requested and for some reason he still gets around the fact that it has been revealed...so I dont know what to say about that but.....and just for the record....how old are your sir mouse?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:
Juss, show me the books and I'll show you their faults.

In fact, until you show me the books and records you refer to, no one has any reason to accept what you say. Further, until the veracity of those sources is proven, they cannot be submitted as evidence.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:
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Topic GOD

Christians...There is only one God (Isaiah 43:11; 44:6,8; 45:5)

Mormons..."And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3)

Christians...God has always been God (Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 57:15)

Mormons...."God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345

Christians...God is a spirit without flesh and bones (John 4:24; Luke 24:39)

Mormons..."The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22. Compare with Alma 18:26-27; 22:9-10)
"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).

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WOW


quote:
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Topic Trinity

Christians... The Trinity is the doctrine that there is only one God in all the universe and that He exists in three, eternal, simultaneous person: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Mormons...The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)


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Really?


quote:
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Topic Jesus
Christians...Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23)

Mormons...
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115)
"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine," by Bruce McConkie, p. 547)

Christians...
Jesus is the eternal Son. He is second person of the Trinity. He has two natures. He is God in flesh and man (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2;9) and the creator of all things (Col. 1:15-17)

Mormons...Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation. (Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15)

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quote:
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Topic Holy Spirit

Christians... The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. He is not a force. He is a person. (Acts 5:3-4; 13:2)

Mormons... Mormonism distinguishes between the Holy Spirit (God's presence via an essence) and the Holy Ghost (the third god in the Mormon doctrine of the trinity).
"He [the Holy Ghost] is a being endowed with the attributes and powers of Deity, and not a mere force, or essence (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 144)


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quote:
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Topic Salvation


Christians... Salvation is the forgiveness of sin and deliverance of the sinner from damnation. It is a free gift received by God's grace (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 6:23) and cannot be earned (Rom. 11:6).


Mormons... Salvation has a double meaning in Mormonism: universal resurrection and . . .
"The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79.

Christians... Salvation (forgiveness of sins) is not by works (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 4:5; Gal. 2:21)

Mormons... "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79)
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It Gets Better


quote:
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Topic Bile

Christians...The inspired inerrant word of God (2 Tim. 3:16). It is authoritative in all subjects it addresses.

Mormons... "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. . ." 8th Article of Faith of the Mormon Church.


I showed you...now I wait

Your fear is obvious Jusselin. your entire religion is afraid. People are leaving daily for the LDS church and now you have resorted to calling a one-time friend of yours a liar and an idiot. How could you Jusselin? I thought you were wiser than that. You follow the word, not the message. Joel has showed you nothing but kindness and patience with each renowed attack from you on his church. Well, if what you say is true, then your judgement day will prove most interesting. Good day to you sir.

okay, here is my take on the whole thread, all 300 something posts to this. isnt the POINT of asking questions and bringing forth scripture differences (like nabster does politely) that we can possibly LEARN more about someone's faith ? about mormonism ? the POINT is not to pursuade or find fault in someone's faith. it is to LEARN and become more EDUCATED in the ways of faiths we might otherwise misunderstand.

Embrace this forum and this thread and these people, for there are very few ways you can get such personal and clear answers in such a casual atmosphere as praise provides. there are still rules here.

happy and friendly forumming !!!

Mouse you need serious Help and as far as people leaving daily for the LDS.....who cares its not a popularity contest the bible tells me that when people reject me that its the jesus in me they are rejecting....so calm down and stop getting so hot headed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jusselin:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:
Juss, show me the books and I'll show you their faults.

In fact, until you show me the books and records you refer to, no one has any reason to accept what you say. Further, until the veracity of those sources is proven, they cannot be submitted as evidence.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic GOD

Christians...There is only one God (Isaiah 43:11; 44:6,8; 45:5)

Mormons..."And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3)

Christians...God has always been God (Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 57:15)

Mormons...."God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345

Christians...God is a spirit without flesh and bones (John 4:24; Luke 24:39)

Mormons..."The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22. Compare with Alma 18:26-27; 22:9-10)
"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WOW


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic Trinity

Christians... The Trinity is the doctrine that there is only one God in all the universe and that He exists in three, eternal, simultaneous person: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Mormons...The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic Jesus
Christians...Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23)

Mormons...
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115)
"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine," by Bruce McConkie, p. 547)

Christians...
Jesus is the eternal Son. He is second person of the Trinity. He has two natures. He is God in flesh and man (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2;9) and the creator of all things (Col. 1:15-17)

Mormons...Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation. (Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic Holy Spirit

Christians... The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. He is not a force. He is a person. (Acts 5:3-4; 13:2)

Mormons... Mormonism distinguishes between the Holy Spirit (God's presence via an essence) and the Holy Ghost (the third god in the Mormon doctrine of the trinity).
"He [the Holy Ghost] is a being endowed with the attributes and powers of Deity, and not a mere force, or essence (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 144)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic Salvation


Christians... Salvation is the forgiveness of sin and deliverance of the sinner from damnation. It is a free gift received by God's grace (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 6:23) and cannot be earned (Rom. 11:6).


Mormons... Salvation has a double meaning in Mormonism: universal resurrection and . . .
"The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79.

Christians... Salvation (forgiveness of sins) is not by works (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 4:5; Gal. 2:21)

Mormons... "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It Gets Better


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topic Bile

Christians...The inspired inerrant word of God (2 Tim. 3:16). It is authoritative in all subjects it addresses.

Mormons... "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. . ." 8th Article of Faith of the Mormon Church.


I showed you...now I wait </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Jusselin I believe that it was yourself that stated that you are hotheaded once.

You obviously are threatened by the LDS church or else you would not go outright and say that someone is a liar. Now that wasen't very nice now was it? You are threatened by them. I'm not sure whatever they told you on your MC (Master's Commision) but you feel now that you can do no wrong. You are placing the word above the message. When you're ready to come back down to earth oh great one, then mayhaps we can have an intelligent conversation instead of you calling me and joel a "pooh mouth", a liar, a "fruitcake", and basically, all around idiots.

Like I said, return to earth and mayhaps we can talk.