Come on now, the process is quite a bit different for mormons - mormon beliefs in salvation may be similar (if you accept that we serve the same Jesus/ God, a stretch by itself), but the mormon process for attaining God-status involves much more than just salvation.



You take that comment literally? Again it's another example of taking 3 words out of context and basing a whole religion on it (the more I study about the scientology cult, the more similarities I see with the mormon religion).

This interpretation of Jesus' comment is contrary to the whole context of the situation in which He is speaking... Jesus in this passage is not speaking to pantheists (who believe that God is everything and everything is God) or polytheists (who believe in many gods). Rather, He is addressing strict Jewish monotheists who believe that only the Creator of the universe is God. So, His statement should not be wrenched out of this monotheistic context and given a pantheistic or polytheistic twist.

Second, in context Jesus is alluding to Psalm 82 where human judges are called "gods," and His reasoning communicates the following idea: "If God even called human judges 'gods' (with a small 'g'), then how much more is it appropriate that I call myself the Son of God." Keep in mind that Christ had just pronounced Himself one with the Father saying, "I and My Father are one" (10:30). The Jews wanted to stone Him because they thought Christ was blaspheming, making Himself out to be equal with God (vv. 3133). Jesus responded by quoting Psalm 82:6 (a verse dealing with human judges) which says, "I said, you are gods." So, Jesus reasoned, if human judges could be called "gods" (with a small 'g'), then why can't the Son of God be called "God."

Third, these judges were "gods" in the sense that they stood in God place, judging over life and death matters. They were not called "gods" because they were actually divine beings. Indeed, the text Jesus cites (Ps. 82) also goes on to say that these judges were "mere men" and would "die" (v. 7).

Fourth, it is possible, as many scholars believe, that when the psalmist Asaph said "You are gods" of the unjust judges in Psalm 82, he was speaking in irony. He indicated to these judges (who had apparently become unjust in their dealings with men), "I have called you 'gods,' but in fact you will die like the men that you really are." If this is so, then when Jesus alluded to this psalm in John 10, He was saying that what the Israelite judges were called in irony and in judgment, He is in reality.

In any event, it is clear that Jesus in this passage was giving a defense for His own deity, not for the deification of man.
http://www.ronrhodes.org/qmanbecomegod.html

But the deification of man is the ultimate defense of Christ's deity.

Think about it.

My head must be tired, I don't see it; 'splain please...

right on allen, i know this spoained somewhere else in this thread sometime ago.
joel - christ's deification has nothing or needs nothing from man to defend His own. He is different - the one- the only.
GOd hood is not for us. We are not god nor gods. We are his creation. made to worship him, not ourselves - ever.

I feel badly when I sin also.

If you didn't have "conditions" to earn God's forgiveness, you wouldn't ammend your life. That you made very clear by assuming just because we are unconditionally forgiven that we now will just continue on sinning. That shows that your heart wouldn't show love for God if forgiveness was uncondtional.
That means you don't love God. You are earning your way, not out of love for God, but for some other reason. And it is a selfish reason.

Joel, you simply aren't good enough to earn anything from God. Your life deserves only God's wrath and punishment for all eternity in the fires of outer darkness. And until you step down from being a pharisee and realize that and remove the white wash covering over your dead soul, you won't see the light of life in the KOH. Joel, you are depraved. And no depraved person can stand in God's presense. Until you see that, your not ready to hear the gospel of God's forgiveness.

A person who thinks he is full will not accept the food placed on the table for him, it will just make him sick. As it has done to you.

Cheerio

Deification of man is the ultimate defense of Man's sinful pride and Satans way to destroy man.

That's what I thought he meant...

Are you really in a position to make a judgement call about where my heart stands with respect to my relationship with God? I don't think you are and on this account you are incorrect.

Agreed, no one is. That is why even after all we can do, we still must be saved by grace. Nothing we do can save us.

not without the grace of Christ they can't.

Now here I have to disagree. Have you seen the statistics on obesity in our country? Obviously people who are full are willing to eat that last peice of cake. And portion sizes are out of control.

I guess, I didn't really explain that above.

Well it's like this. If you accept that Jesus is literally God's Son and not in some way the same being as God, then Christ's deification is simply a forerunner to the deification of the rest of his spiritual sons and daughters mankind.

God is no respecter of persons and I think that includes not differentiating between the reward that awaits us and the one that his Son has attained.

Now obviously, if you don't believe that God and Christ are separate beings, then this doesn't play. But if you do, it's only rational to make that assumption and as such. If mankind is deified through Christ, then the case of Christ's own deification is complete.

You have condemned yourself in this matter, not me. How often have you brought up the point that Salvation through faith alone means we think we can do whatever we want(sin).

You bring it up all the time(not in those exact words) because you don't see how it is possible for Christians, saved through faith alone, to have a desire, kindled by God, to now do good works and ammend their lives.

Joel, if you can't see how true believers, saved through faith alone, cannot help but want to do good works and ammend their lives, it shows that you yourself couldn't do it. Don't you see what I am saying? If you could do it Joel, you wouldn't be throwing that at us repeatedly because you would know exactly why we desire to ammend our lives. But you cannot even see how it is possible for us, can you.


If you are saved by grace only after all you can do and nothing you do can save you. You are still saved by your works and efforts!

Not in the same sense as those who do it without faith. But no different really. If grace only comes to those who do all they can do first, then grace is dependant on what you do in that sense. Yes, in the end it may only be grace that saved you(LDS teaching) but I am telling you that no effort of yours counts towards grace then applying to you.

You are purchasing grace by doing all you can do. You are earning it. Once you have made an effort to do all you can do, you expect grace alone in exchange. That is purchasing grace.

You must be worthy of it. And this is being saved by works as much as the other even though they have differences to you.

Without grace first Joel, it is impossible to please God. So I am trying to explain that to you right now, you are not pleasing God in the slightest! Not that I am picking on you, none of us, without first being saved by grace alone, can do anything to please God. I am just pointing out that your no exception. So your fighting a battle you have already lost!

Until you believe that you must first be saved by grace, THEN go and do all you can do. Grace BEFORE you do all you can do. Not AFTER.

If you don't agree, fine. But at least understand so fully and completely what I am saying that you know exactly what you are rejecting because I KNOW that you are going to regret it. I KNOW and I have that witness from the Holy Spirit and it is stronger than the sun shining.

We need to keep on this discussion, for it is here that one goes to heaven or outer darkness, we need to get this one thing right if nothing else. Our eternal destiny rests on this one doctrine.





ROFLOL. Your going to split my stitches open LOL.
Too funny.



If God was a man before he became a God as the LDS teaches:

"As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be.” (The Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles p. 59.)

If man progresses to be a God, then what happened with the first God that started this process? What I mean is, the first God had to be a man first to progress to a God but if before him there was no God then he wasn't God's son. He didn't become a man the way the LDS teaches by being first a spirit child of a heavenly father and mother and then coming to an earth. In fact, the first God would have progressed to Godhood without the aide or grace of a God before him. Not too mention, who then created him? And if he progresses to being a God without a God before him, then we don't need God to progress either?
And if a God didn't create him then we are back to athiesm. If a God didn't create him, then why does everyone thereafter have to be created? And if God's are born of God and not eternally existing, then the first God cannot exist because he was not born of a God before him? My head is spinning from my own questions!

???

You are putting an orange and an apple together and calling it a tricyle...

This goes back to the discussion from the last couple pages. The Bible states Jesus always was, nothing wishy-washy or unclear. He wasn't a man before He was God's son, or before He "became flesh and dwelt among us". He was already divine, he didn't become divine... where do you get that?

Jesus, God, Holy Spirit = divine
Man, angel, everything else = creation

The chasm between divine and creation is much larger than you are wishing it to be. There's no Biblical path for man becoming God.

Echo,

You clearly have very little grasp on the nuance of language.

Perhaps the reason that I'm concerned that teaching faith alone leads to people justifying their sins, isn't because that's what I would do, but rather because it is what I have seen. I lived for two years in a nation of Lutherans. Their saved by faith only doctrine has created a nation of illegitimate children and single mothers.

I'm not saying, if I'm saved by faith alone, I'll go out and get busy sinning. I am saying that this is the way many, many individuals react to that doctrine.

So to your point, I haven't condemned myself. I'm saying that the focus on grace, to the point of abhorring good works leads to sin.

Read those sentences again. The two are contradictory.

Being saved by grace after all we can do is simply another way of saying - what we do doesn't matter, it is the grace of Christ that saves us. Go ahead and interpret it differently if you'd like, but you're wrong.

It's not an exchange, you are wrong. Our works are merely a response to the grace of Christ.

This is where the debate becomes pointless and devolves into a matter of semantics, because for weeks, this is what I've been trying to tell you that a good Mormon will do.

Good question, but largely a mystery we'll have to wait and find out about, as it is irrelevant to our own pursuit of salvation.

An LDS Hymn states, "Improvement and Progression are one eternal round."

I don't know that our finite minds are able to understand the infinite bounds of creation.

Allen,

That was certainly not a settled topic.

It's very unclear in the world of acceptable Christians as to the nature of JEsus and God's relationship.

Some of you think Jesus is God others think that Jesus is God's son. Spiritually and physically.

Jesus was divine from the beginning, but so are we all, as all of us are the "offspring of God" according to Paul, and as the "offspring" of the divine we are divine. Christ differs in that he is the firstborn spiritually and the only begotten physically. Additionally due to the divine attributes he inherited from his Father's DNA, he was able to live a perfect life and be offered as the great and ultimate sacrifice for all the sins of mankind.

There is actually less evidence in the Book of Mormon that a man can become God than there is in the Bible.

Now that's an unbiased assertion Really... you have no idea how happy that makes me to read you posting that. Since there is zero supporting Biblical scripture that we are divine/can become God, then this mormon belief isn't supported in the BOM either? Why do you persist is such blasphemy then?

Please provide supporting Biblical scripture that says:

1. God physically had sexual intercourse with Mary (mormon assumption since they believe dna was passed)
2. we are physical children of God

As for #1, this is what I am finding in the scripture:
Matthew 1:


Luke 1:


In #2 Paul is speaking spiritually, he never states we are physical offspring of God.

You really have to put any semblance of context on hold to get anything like what a mormon believes out of Biblical scripture. Please post your Biblical reference points along with 5-6 verses before and after for any basis in context.

D N A ??? ROM GOD TO US???
Oh that is good one. TO assume God has DNa is pretty much ridiulous. DNA is physical - GOd is spiritual. Yes , he has a physical being, but to assume he is DNA is wayyyyy out there. We are not physically like GOd at all - in terms of physics. We have shelf life- he doesnt. We live in space and time - he doesnt- and on and on. We are made in His image -spiritually. Mind conscience, emotions, spirit, will. COme on Joel, do Mormons believe in DNA passed down to Mary from God the father??? Really????
Mormon leap - to justify another doctrine of sorts...wow.

Let me use the same grade scale for Mormonism and see just if you think this is the correct way to judge a teaching:

My experience with Mormons has been worse than my experience with Christians. I have met athiests that are better at loving people than mormons. Therefore The LDS Church teaches a false way to be exalted.
Now see, it doesn't work that way, does it?
I shouldn't be judging Mormonism based on the behavior of the people. I should be basing Mormonism on the teachings of mormonism and how it applies to me. The reason? Well, there will be hypocritical Mormons as much as there will be hypocritcal Christians or Lutherans. Why would we judge wether something is true or not based on the hypocrites? It just isn't smart.

They aren't contradictory, its just that your not understanding my point because I am not explaining it well. What I mean to say is that if your saved by grace AFTER you do all you can do, even if grace is all that saved you, doing all you can do still plays a part in some way because obtaining grace is dependant on you first doing all you can do.


Even still, You can't expect me to take your word for it. Provide official LDS sources to back you because the official LDS sources that I read contradict you. Here is another that makes the point that your works have something to do in obtaining exaltation:

The following are words taken from an LDS Hymn:
"If I but learn to do his will I'll live with him once more"
"Teach me all that I must do to live with him some day"
(Gospel Principles page 366)



Provide official LDS sources with quotes. It is what the LDS church teaches that is important to me. People can be wrong, you can be wrong. I want to read with my own eyes, what the LDS teaches on this.
How can they be a response to the grace of Christ when Grace doesn't come until after the response? "saved by grace AFTER all you can do"

Well this is well and good but still in opposition to the BOM which clearly states the exact opposite.

Exactly and if it is true, then we just as well turn to athiesm because God had to be a man first. Then Man is a God in embryo, God has never eternally existed.
Joel. God was not a man first. God is eternal.( always existing from eternity to eternity) It doesn't take a infinite mind to figure out something that is really very simple.

It is not possible to say that God(Heavenly Father) and Heavenly Mother created spirit children in one breath and then in the other to say that God was once a man who progressed to Godhood.
Either God was a man and progressed to a God or God was God from all eternity(always existing)and never was a man first. But you cannot have both.

Hugs!

False.

God's ways are not man's ways.

again false. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying we are "spiritually" God's children and in that sense our spirit is already divine. agreeing therefore precisely with what you posted from Paul.

So David, next time you post make sure you know what the crap it is I'm saying.

Nabster,

I wasn't talking about DNA from God to us. But if God is Jesus' father physically and spiritually, it would only make sense that Jesus inherited certain traits from him.

Of Course, many Christians can't decide whether or not Jesus and God are the same being. That being the case, if they are the same being, then God definitely has a physical body in the form of the Resurrected Jesus. If they are not, then Jesus is clearly God's son physically and spiritually and as such, would have inherited God's personal traits, call it DNA call it whatever you like.

The point was merely that since our spirits were created by God, our spirits are divine as we are his spirit children. Jesus on the other hand is both spiritually and physically divine.

And again Echo, you lack complete grasp of the nuance of the English language. Here you are arguing against something I didn't even say.

First I was defending myself as a non-reprobate, because you accused me of being depraved because you claimed that I had said that I would sin willy-nilly if I was saved by grace. I responded to explain that no, I wouldn't because I in fact believe I am saved by grace and I do everything in my power to avoid sin. The point I made wasn't that saved by faith alone is false, rather that it is dangerous to emphasize "faith alone" to the point of rejecting works. Rather, the doctrine should be taught that Christ has saved us and because he has saved us we ought to repent, we ought to do good works, we ought to keep the commandments. If we aren't doing these things, then it is very likely that we aren't actually saved, and we don't actually believe in Christ.

False.

Doing all we can is merely the response to us having been saved by grace.

When I say it becomes a matter of semantics, I am referring to your linear approach to the word "after".

The phrase "saved by grace, after all we can do" can be interpreted many ways.

For example:

"saved by grace, no matter what we've done"
is how I interpret it (and the doctrine of the church).

or

"saved by grace, after we've done everything possible to save ourselves."
which is how you interpret it.

I'm telling you, and I've told you before, that your interpretation is incorrect.

I will give you LDS sources, but you won't understand it because your mind is programmed to reject any mention of works.

If we are saved we must do good works, or in effect, we are not really saved.

You cannot divide faith and works.

You misunderstand our teachings then. We do emphasize "faith alone" without works because that is what justification is. And justification is what you and I are talking about. But Lutherans also teach sanctification. Sanctification comes after justification, not before and not during.

Justification: Saved through faith alone. Exaltation is our gift and inheritance right now. Because of Jesus, we have been made perfect forever. We are given a new heart that desires to serve and obey God.

Sanctification: follows justification. Now that we have become permanent members of God's family, and since we have been given a new heart that desires to serve and obey God, we now begin the walk in the direction of Holiness.

Is this book still available to buy? I would like to purchase it and read the whole thing. When it speaks about salvation are they talking about ressurection from the dead alone or exaltation?

Now what about the hymn songs? They still make what you do the condition to exaltation.

Hugs

The immature Christian can easily mistake the focus on faith alone for justification (not in the religious sense) of their immoral lifestyle.

This is why the LDS literature that you read is so strong in its emphasis on faith and works together.

In fact, the doctrines of justification and sanctification are actually taught in our church and mean basically what you described.

However, I believe the leaders of our church have made a conscious decision to always teach works and faith together to prevent the mistakes of the new converts from becoming a sinful pattern. Rather help the new convert understand that, having come to the faith, they must now be obedient.

Yes of course it's available.

Mormons don't speak casually about a salvation unless they are referring to the entire package (sin and death). If we are speaking about one or the other, we then make clear that we are speaking about either salvation from sin, or salvation from death.

My what an exceedingly fair and delightsome tone that is...

The problem is no-one knows what the crap it is you are saying, including you. You throw out a blasphemous statement like:



And get defensive when asked to back that up with Biblical references.

So, what gives? Are you just tired of responding? You throw out statements that go against the very nature of Christ and Biblical scripture and expect us just to swallow hook, line and sinker. Your responses in recent days and weeks have become increasingly hostile and defensive - are we getting close to a sore spot you don't have cut-n-paste answers for?

Please answer the original question regarding Biblical references for your quoted statement "There is actually less evidence in the Book of Mormon that a man can become God than there is in the Bible."

Joel

When you talk about not being saved by works. I have a feeling we don't mean the same thing. I did some reading at LDS.org on it and do tell me if I am understanding it correctly.

The LDS believes that to be saved by works a person thinks they can overcome death by works alone. That is, that they think they don't need Jesus overcoming physical death for them.

Also, I read up on Grace over at LDS.org and Grace appears to mean something different than what we believe also.
Grace, for you, is some kind of power to help you overcome your sins. Can you explain this better or further?

Hugs

Perhaps my testiness is due more to the fact that sometimes people come to the party late. Apologies

The LDS Doctrine of man being granted a status like unto God is documented in the Bible.

The process began with us coming to earth to learn and develop.

Adam and Eve unwittingly made some of the first steps when they partook of the fruit and God himself said:

Genesis 3:22

David writes in Psalms that despite the lowly station of man, that we will be given dominion over all things and be crowned with glory



Psalms 82 is also a nice message. Allen has read in some Bible study guide that this referring to judges and not just folks like you and me. I'll post the whole psalm and you can read it for yourself.



This Psalm not only suggests that we are Gods but in the first verse suggests that God is among gods.

Interesting.

In Acts 17 Paul uses the statement that we are the offspring of God to prove that God is like us and not a graven image. Interesting that he uses that to prove God is more like us and I have to use it to show that we are more like God.



Romans 8:16-17 shows that we are heirs with Christ and that we will be glorified together. In other words, Paul makes no distinction between the reward that awaits Christ and the reward awaiting us.



I almost forgot John 10:35

Again Allen says this is referring to judges, but I respectfully disagree. Here Jesus is defending his statement that he is the son of God. He uses the Old Testament scripture that states "Ye are gods" in his defense. In other words, if the OT states that we are all gods, then what's the big deal with Jesus claiming to be the son of God. That's essentially his argument.

John 10:34-36


Paul writes in 2 corinthians 3 that we will have the same image as the Lord and the same glory.



Galatians 4:4-7 states that we are adopted as sons of God and therefore will receive the reward of a son as God's heirs.



Ephesians 4:13 states

So we will all come to a "perfect man" which apparently is the same as the fulness of the stature of Christ.

Interesting.

1 John 3:2 So those of us who are the sons of God, no doubt, when he appears will be like him

And finally in Revelations 3:20 & 21, we are told that the reward of those who overcome is to sit in the throne of God with Jesus.

That's quite a reward for someone that is not a god, don't you think?



So there you have it, Biblical evidence to back up LDS doctrine. I don't expect anyone to consider this definitive proof, rather simply evidence that such an outcome might indeed be a possible end result of salvation.

As I've said many times before, I don't think anything can be proved by appealing directly to the Bible. If I were you all, I'd make my appeals to God, through prayer and get answers through personal revelation.