</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can't imagine why someone would believe something from someone anti-mormon rather than /someone pro-morm</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Because it would be kind of like going to a devil worshipper for his opinion of Christ.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel doesn't need uninformed assistance on this thread, he's doing a good job of that by himself </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">thank you, I guess, or did you mean that I'm uninformed as well. On second thought I can't tell if that's a compliment or an insult.

As for Jusselin's post. I was just disappointed, not really surprised however. I figured with what he's been up to and who he's with that his opinion of Mormons would become far less tolerant than he was becoming.

Sadly, what he posted was clearly a "cut and paste" job from typical anti-Mormon literature. I would have been a little more forgiving of him had he come in and asked a question like. "Hey Joel, I heard Joseph Smith was a Money Digger, what's the deal?" and then I could have simply explained that in that period of our history, there were many in the Northeastern US that sought out buried treasure and to be a money digger was not necessarily out of the ordinary. It simply sounds a little wierd when judged by todays social mores and standards. Or if Jusselin had come in and said, "Joel, why was Joseph Smith arrested so many times?" Then I could have explained again that persecution of the early Mormons was often institutionalized and carried out by government entities. It seems confusing to us today that a man would be arrested simply for his beliefs, but we have to remember that Mormons in the 1800's tended to settle on what was then the western frontier of America - in other words the wild wild west, where a mayor or a sherrif would do the bidding of a powerful preacher in town. This was generally the case - Indeed Joseph was arrested on several occassions and also exhonerated of any and all wrong doing for those arrests.

Simply coming in and firing a shot across the bow like Jusselin did is not welcome, not friendly, hardly Christian, and certainly not in the spirit of open and honest intellectual discussion. At any rate, since none of what Jusselin posted came from the Newsweek article I linked to, I'll link to it again in case people missed it.

Newsweek's cover story this week is on the Mormons. It is found here:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9630255/site/newsweek/


And there is an interview with our current
prophet as well. It is found here:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9630256/site/newsweek/

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:
Oh Jusselin, I guess I prefer NE20 to this new and intolerant version of you.

I guess now you prefer to believe the hype from anti-Mormon and Biased sources rather than from someone who used to consider you a friend. It's too bad that you're so easily manipulated. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">that herts.... I cant believe you wont be my friend because i believe different from you I still consider you a friend I dont have time right now to post the rest of mormon doctrine today but I will get on later....FYI Joel its a class I am taking and mormon History is the one we have been on lately

And it is biased, mean-spirited, un-Christian, uninformed, and wrong.

As I said earlier. I'm fine if you want to ask about something you heard in the class, but to simply fire a shot like that is not right.

If you learn in class about "Bizzare temple practices" and want to ask me a question that's one thing, but to simply transcribe it as some grand expose, that's mean-spirited.

By the way, in the spirit of knowing your roots, I was just reading on the Master's Commission USA website and here's what it says under "How did Masters Commission begin?" </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...It was begun in response to a challenge from a Mormon Missionary to two Christian men in the church....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can't imagine why someone would believe something from someone anti-mormon rather than /someone pro-morm</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Because it would be kind of like going to a devil worshipper for his opinion of Christ.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If the history is questionable, then I would think it's *required* to get the background from more than just the subject of the inquiry. Put another way, I'm sure if the topic is about Jehovah's Witnesses (one of your favorite whipping boys if I remember right) you'd think it was more than fair to read the background for their beliefs from more than just the Jehovah Witness people themselves.

You like to sound alarmed that we'd believe anything about mormons from anyone but mormons, but it really isn't any different than you'd treat j-dub's (that's the term, right?) or branch davidian's, hale boppers, etc. To a more mainstream denomination, mormonism is no different than jehovah witnesses in the fringeness of their beliefs. I'm not sure why you like to play the 'hurt feelings' card when you've expressed the same dismay toward other fringe denominations that aren't here to defend themselves.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel doesn't need uninformed assistance on this thread, he's doing a good job of that by himself </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">thank you, I guess, or did you mean that I'm uninformed as well. On second thought I can't tell if that's a compliment or an insult.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">:p

Again, I'll re-iterate, I would react entirely differently had the approach been, "Hey I heard this in a class, what's the deal?" Instead of stating these assertions as though they are facts.

I know LDS History and I prefer to read unbiased sources of LDS History. I've read several books that I would classify as borderline anti-Mormon.

I agree that Joseph Smith was called a Money-digger, however, when viewed in the context of his time, not ours, that's not such a ludicrous thing to have been.

I have never read anywhere from any reputable source that his mother, Lucy Mack Smith was highly superstitious. I have read in many places both Mormon and non-Mormon alike that she was very religious and I guess that for some the difference between religion and superstition is minimal when you're trying to slander someone's reputation.

I've also never read anywhere that Joseph used a "secret decoder ring" to translate the Book of Mormon. Moreover, John the Baptist merely ordained Joseph to the Aaronic Priesthood. It was actually Jesus Christ that commanded him to restore the true church.

As for Joseph Smith's criminal records, he was sued in New York, never arrested or sued in Ohio that I know of, he was arrested in Missouri and jailed under false charges and finally escaped. In Illinois he was again arrested under false charges and through conspiracy never left that prison because he was killed there.

As far as the split in the church is concerned, it was not immediate. The reorganized church did not emerge until the 1860's. It was not started by Joseph's wife and Children. It was started by others who had not moved to Utah with Brigham Young and they asked Joseph's son Joseph Smith III if he would consent to be their leader.

As for my attitude toward the J-dubs. Anything I have said about them has been derived from first hand experience with them and study of their own written materials. In fact they have a book called "The greatest man that ever lived" which emphasizes that Jesus was merely "the greatest man that ever lived" and not the son of God. I've read that book, I understand what they believe and have only ever shared what their beliefs are from their doctrine and from their own mouths. Moreover, I actually have more respect for the J-dubs than most other mainline Christian religions - I disagree with them, but I respect them - because they have the guts to say that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Catholicism used to have those same guts but they've lost it. Protestantism was the same but now they've lost those guts as well. There are very few religions around with the guts to say that they are right.

If there was a J-dub around here, I would be very interested to get their viewpoint on some key doctrinal issues that I've wondered about and would like some clarification on - and I would ask them about my questions regarding their history and origin, not assert my version of the truth, without room for their comment.

Come on Allen, of course I'm hurt, NE20 used to be very volatile and intolerant, then he mellowed a bit and became less disrespectful. Then went off for his Masters commission and now he comes back once again very intolerant.

I've been posting around here for a couple of years and people know me, I think I've at least earned the right to be trusted enough to tell the truth about my faith. I guess I just don't get it, when I post in any other topic and leave out Mormon specific references, Allen, Steve, nabster, Trusting Him and most all of you agree with what I say as being soundly Christian but perhaps a little on the conservative side and yet I'm still considered a member of a fringe religion.

Joel, it will always be difficult to be inclusive of "all " of your beleif systgem as it entails some scriptural interpretation that is troublesome(see earlier in mormon thread please) and some ritualistic "sacred" things as well that will always be controversial. Your reasoning and interpretation seems bulletproof and ound to you regarding these things just as us in mainstream evangelical christianity believe the same about our interpretation. Being assembly of God pentecostal, i get a little of what you get from time to time about being wrong about scripture . But I believe AOG doctrine is sound and 100% Biblical. Another area of concern and a reason for intolerance is the Book OF Mormon. No one in mainstream dednomiations will ever accept another book, it is blasphemy to "us". Just some people believe speaking in tongues is not Biblical. only times about 10. Christianity is about love it is not about tolerance of someone's religion for the sake of being tolerant. Intolerance does not have to be shown in a fashion void of love. But love on the other hand is not tolerance of something we truly believe will cause someone to miss heavena and salvation. The great commission calls us to find the lost, when we believe scripturally someone is lost wse will not be tolerant because to us, much more is at stake...a soul, for eternity.
I have long thought you and I and many others around here will just have to agree to disagree. That is not tolerance, it is just understanding our differences and after much discussion we choose our own destiny for eternity. Hopefully in some way we are all right and can make it see God in Heaven. If not, one of our groups of beliefs will **** us to hell for eternity.
maybe one day we can both drink from and eat from the table of the Lord and look back at some of our fruitless gibberish on this forum and chuckle a bit. maybe....
nabster

Couldn't have said it better nabster

Maybe intolerance is the wrong word then and maybe its more about mutual respect and open and honest intellectual discussion.

Simply put, based on past conversations with NE20 on this board, I found his post disrespectful to the understanding relationship we've developed on this board.

I'm not trying to start a debate here, maybe I am, but where does the Bible say that the scriptural canon is closed and no new revelation can be acceptable?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:
And it is biased, mean-spirited, un-Christian, uninformed, and wrong.

As I said earlier. I'm fine if you want to ask about something you heard in the class, but to simply fire a shot like that is not right.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[/QUOTE]

First off Joel its not biased its the truth and you know it...if you dont then your being lied to. These are every day facts that you can read about mormons in most any books in the library that are not mormon written

Second no one fired off a shot at you...and i know that you dont have a problem with me learning about mormonism Joel as long as I learn from a mormon though right....I seem to have missplaced my lesson papers but as soon as I find them I will print up the rest....

The Masters commission thing...

The vision of Masters Commission began in the heart of Pastor Larry Kerychuck over 20 years ago when he encountered a young man of the mormon faith who finished his two year pilgramige if you will and then Pastor larry decided that if a false religion could be so dedicated to what they do then Christian teens should be more than capable to do the same thing. With the support of Pastor tommy Barnett (whith which I have met personally and he rox) Masters commission was born starting in Pheonix and spreading like wild flower....I know the whole story but thank you for keeping me on my toes brother...I still like you always will bro, please take what I say out of love not hate...I love you bro seriously...But I feel your religion is a cover up for a cult...not you but the religion of Mormonism

Hey man, when you diss someone's faith, you are throwing a personal insult directed at them. People (well normal people) choose their own faith. Therefore, by calling his religion a cult, you are now calling his ideas cultish, which has a bad conotation. Now see here Jusselin, you have no right to say who's right and wrong. YOU ARE HUMAN. You do NOT know whether your ideas are right and his ideas are wrong.

What if the Muslims are right? and you're wrong? Now what? What will you do now? Have you ever even considered the possibility that you may be wrong?

Juss, show me the books and I'll show you their faults.

In fact, until you show me the books and records you refer to, no one has any reason to accept what you say. Further, until the veracity of those sources is proven, they cannot be submitted as evidence.

It's the same thing that happened when you started to quote Ed Decker - He is a corrupt source for info about Mormons seeing as how he profits from it and has an axe to grind.

As I've always said, Read the Book of Mormon - pray and ask God if it's true. I don't want you to get the Mormon version of things, I want you to seek out God's version and to find it from the source -i.e. from God through prayer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:


In fact, until you show me the books and records you refer to, no one has any reason to accept what you say.

I want you to seek out God's version and to find it from the source -i.e. from God through prayer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you sure get mad for some one whos found Christs perfect religion...For one its not about religion God never said religion will get you to heaven, He said that if you confess with your mouth that jesus is lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved Romans 10:9 and the bible also tells us that Jesus is the son of God and proves to us the trinity

Matthew 3:16-17

16And when Jesus was baptized, He went up at once out of the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he [John] saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on Him.

17And behold, a voice from heaven said, This is My Son, My Beloved, in Whom I delight!

Mormonism does not believe that Jesus was Gods son...If you do then your not a mormon your simply a person who enjoys mormon fellowship

Once your relationship with Christ becomes real, Mouse, you know in what you beleive and why. Muslims are and buddhist and hindus and every other religion believing in a dead God is wrong. So are Jehovah's Witnesses, Bahai'ism, , devil worship,wiccan and so on. Christians have absolute truth in the Bible and in Jesus. no other religion has that...the jews come close, but they miss the greatest part,Christ. They do not believe Messiah has yet come. Mormonism has it until the include Jospeh Smith and the Book of Mormon,(IMHO). The premise that God waited 1800 years or so to find a prophet to restore the true church, chose the man Joseph Smith, and continued to call a living prophet from then on to guide the church and change doctrine and modify what previous prophets said was from God, is very difficult for me to grasp. When God says it, it is never contradictory to anything he previously said. Ultimate truth, is in the Bible and no other book can boast that. So why add to it. God put in place the book and chapters he saw fit to have included. i believe that by my faith. if i question that , then i have to questionmuch of what God does and then Christianity is just like any other religion...it changes and it isnt based on ansolute truth. it is based on humanism what we THINK should be or what we THINK God meant or God didnt really say that he said this.....sounds like the devil, in the garden of eden, dont it? By the wayt i believe that story as well. Christianity needs to look at the dedication of MOrmon believers and ask themselves why our actions are not as convicting as theirs. They are hardworking successful and dedicated to their faith and the spreading of it. Commendable. Really a model to be studied and duplicated, except for the need to know basis stuff
nabster

Whoa, Mormons don't believe Jesus was God's son?

I take it all back, the people feeding you these lies aren't biased, their idiots. How about i quote to you what Joseph Smith said of his first vision.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I saw two personages whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So let's get this straight in the vision that essentially started Mormonism, Joseph Smith claims to have seen God and Jesus and God says to him "This is my beloved Son." and Mormons don't believe that Jesus is God's son? Funny what I've quoted here would seem to indicate otherwise. It's actually in the Mormon canon of scripture as well, so it's not some obscure doctrine. It's also taught to people in their first visit with Mormon missionaries.

Oh yeah, and here's one of our 13 articles of faith - you know, the founding doctrines of our faith.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So we believe that all mankind can be saved through the Atonement of Christ - I guess that makes us even worse.

Juss - seriously, show me the source from whence these folks are feeding you this crap.

You've either missed the boat or fallen off Juss. I hope you can get back on.

Jusselin is just wayyy misguided.

Now Nabster, the "Son of God" would have to meaning to the other religions. And please, extracting the foot out of your mouth when you say

"Muslims are and buddhist and hindus and every other religion believing in a dead God is wrong. So are Jehovah's Witnesses, Bahai'ism, , devil worship,wiccan and so on."

would make you sound like a smarter person. For one, devil worshipers belive he is alive and well. Secondly, Hindu's believe in alive and well gods too. Buddhists believe in the everliving peace that is part of us. And we are living.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:
As I've always said, Read the Book of Mormon - pray and ask God if it's true. I don't want you to get the Mormon version of things, I want you to seek out God's version and to find it from the source -i.e. from God through prayer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've heard and read this little speech many times... OK, let me ask this - I've read parts of the book of mormon, prayed and asked God if it was true, and He says "no". Did I read the wrong parts or do I have to read the whole thing?

Seriously, if God has told me the parts I've read aren't true, then at what point do I keep reading to convince God I really need to know, or was He serious when He told me "no" the first time?

How do you answer someone who reports back that God said "no"? If the parts I've read aren't true, then how am I supposed to believe any of it?

Mouse, ahem, you calling me misguided or any one else is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. find something to believe in and discover why you believe it and then live it with purpose.
your faith is a drifting uncentered, change with the wind faith and rooted in nothing except anger towards what you call God...in my opinion and said with a touch of rebuking and love...
As for smarter, maybe maybe not...it is however not relevant. What I ams saying is I BELIEVE I AM RIGHT BY MY FAITH AND A BIBLE THAT IS ABSOLUTE TRUTH.JESUS IS LIVING, BUDDHA IS NOT MAHARUSHI (?) IS NOT ALIVE, BAHAI'ULLA(SP) IS NOT ALIVE, NEITHER IS CROWLEY OR AnY OTHER NON JESUS BELIEVING RELIGION. HE IS THE ONLY LIVING SAVIOUR , ROSE FROM THE DEAD, YA KNOW TOMB EMPTY.
I SAY WHAT I SAY(sorry bout caps) because my faith in what I believe is unshakeable Mouse. To you it sounds arrogant and holier than thou, because you dont experience the same faith, my friend.
Joel, answer me this....who is Jesus in relation to satan? Why are satanic(like) and masonic rituals a part of some of your most sacred of ceremonies? As an outsider looking in, i just cant grasp th reasons, and all the logic and reasoning in the world doesnt do it for me, because no where in the Bible are these ritualistic necessities evident. I struggle witH Catholicism often for same resons.
Why is the sign of thhe nail and sure sign of the nail a part of mormonism, why no crosses on your buildings, why the steeple a nail instead of a cross, pointing towardss heaven from whence Jesus will again come? I fully understand you are able and have been trained to answer each and every questoin here but thbe fact that so much NEEDS explanation is confusing.
And really why is it so hard for christianity to understand mMOrmons if we are so closely doctrinally te same? I am not jabbin g at you this is real and where i am.
nab

And that nabster is all I'm asking of Juss. Ask a question - don't make an unfounded accusation. Have a discussion without inflammatory language.

Allen and nabster, I don't have time right now, but I'll get to it on Monday. To be honest, nabster some of your questions will take some thought. As I'm sure you'll understand alot of what you find odd, I find perfectly natural so I have to think a bit about roots and causes.

Allen, good question. I have been down that road with many people - the short answer is that alot of what you get will depend on whether or not you are truly able to go to God with an open mind and heart. This is not intended as a slam and to some degree I'm sure you'll agree with me, but I don't think you, nabster, steve, Juss or hardly anyone around here could go to God to find out about the Book of Mormon with an unbiased starting out point.

In essence, that's what I try to get at around here. I just want to remove the bias and untruth spread about Mormons - so that if at some point you really did want to know - and let's face it, right now you don't - you could go about it with an open mind.

I guess that was a long answer - anyway, see you on Monday.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:
Whoa, Mormons don't believe Jesus was God's son?

I take it all back, the people feeding you these lies aren't biased, their idiots.


Juss - seriously, show me the source from whence these folks are feeding you this crap.

You've either missed the boat or fallen off Juss. I hope you can get back on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hold on bro hold on lets count to ten pray and then reply...I am not here for a boxing match and I didnt call your head Cheese an idiot so calling my Sunday school teacher an idiot i think is a little rough...any who what i have described it exactly right and any one who is involved in mormonism any deeper than just showing up for church knows i am right...another thing i am starting to not like about moromonism is that their fundamental truths change accordingly with government pressure (hence poligomy)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joel33:
And that nabster is all I'm asking of Juss. Ask a question - don't make an unfounded accusation. Have a discussion without inflammatory language.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">jusselin Joel your religion is a cult

Joel Jusselin you shouldnt say that just ask me about mormonism

Jusselin Joel tell me the truth please I beg of you

Joel Jusselin you should convert right now mormonism is perfect your bible lies a little but mine is perfect...you should become mormon


I dont know why i didnt think of that idea before why not ask a person who would be willing to lie about a religion full of lies and foolish proclimations...it makes since now thanks for clearing that up

please excuse the sarcasm but that game of cat and mouse gets old Joel