Kiss me beneath the milky twilight. Lead me out on the moonlit floor. Lift your open hand. Strike up the band and make the fireflies dance, Silver moon's sparkling. So kiss me. = sixpence none the richer

Found some interesting reading this weekend. I started it, decided it was too far-fetched and stopped, but finished it just now...

In it, the author discusses our casualness in regards to physical intimacy before marriage, in this case - kissing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Christians give the actual act of sexual intercourse a great deal of spiritual significance, yet we rarely examine the motives behind our casual exchanges of physical intimacy with brothers and sisters. We don't fully acknowledge sexual intimacy as a whole package; we don't realize that the beginning and ending of passion are inseparable. Most Christians of my generation would agree with the biblical teaching of physical purity as a goal. Yet when it comes to following up in action, we make the same mistakes as our supposedly more worldly peers. Why is that?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting.... she goes on to say:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe it's partly because kissing is treated so nonchalantly — it's something we exchange between dates, and it's justifiable as long as the people involved are Christians and they don't take it "too far." It has little to do with God; it has been reduced to a touch exchanged between two, instead of its intended purpose of three-way communion between man, woman and God. The Bible never says "Thou shalt not kiss" so we assume Jesus doesn't come into our physical connections until we are on the way to marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Take a minute to read her article if you like.. but what do you think? A little too prim and proper? Unrealistic?

[edit: guess I should post the link
http://www.boundless.org/1999/departments/beyond_buddies/a0000154.html

"There will be other ways of showing affection without arousing passion."

She doesn't say HOW If she draws the line at kissing, how about hugs? Hugs can also cause sparks. Should we then refrain from all types of physical contact with anyone of the opposite sex? That would be impossible... It would also make us go bonkers LOL I don't think humans were created for total celibacy. Many of us need to let off steam so to say, and sometimes a hug and/or a kiss does just that - without leading to 'further intimacy'.

It might be good to think about this subject, but I also think she is a bit extreme. She might be greatly disappointed on her wedding day..... If she ever finds a man that lives up to those standards! A lousy kiss is a BIG turn off And to go from zero to sex in a few hours? Yikes

It might be a beautiful thought but it's also a very unrealistic one.

aleina

The author may be a bit extreme, but I have to agree with her...at least somewhat about the kiss. I never thought of myself as prim and proper, but I have always held the kiss as something more than a casual thing. In fact, I think kissing (outside of the brotherly/sisterly peck on the cheek) is more intimate than most sexual activity. And I also think that this type of kiss...(the one the author describes) can and does lead to more. Often times you may not have any intention of going further, but it only takes a little bit to spark passion...

And to your point about finding out that a man is a lousy kisser when it's too late...that could go the same for other things But I don't think God works like that. If He's going to put two people together, then they are going to make a choice to love regardless of any physical incompatibilities...(for lack of a better term... )

I don't know...I think that maybe I should actually test this situation out...then give you a review...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by embie:

I don't know...I think that maybe I should actually test this situation out...then give you a review... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sooo.... how did it go?

I think I have to agree with Aleina in part at least... she does seem a bit unrealistic, after all, we are human This might explain a bit:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">God asks different things of different people. My point is not that everyone should take a vow against premarital kissing. My challenge is that this generation of Christians would take a deeper look at something we treat so lightly. That we would take the initiative in saving something so precious for the right time and person — that we would pray about grasping what Solomon meant when he said there is a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing. That we would understand how intricately kissing is involved with Jesus and that we would ask Him how we can better obey His commands for purity. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I do think we need to reconsider whether or not we use Solomon for an example in this regard... he did have several hundred wives and 900 concubines... I really don't think he saved anything for just about anything

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Since I don't have a boyfriend and have never been kissed, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ummmm... hello? It's easy to avoid that which you don't have the opportunity to partake in

Get in the game sister, then tell me to how to play...

I know this should be in the Levity thread...but it was so appropriate to this one that I thought we could use a grin...

A mom is driving a little girl to her friend's house for a play date.
"Mommy," the little girl asks, "how old are you?"
"Honey, you are not supposed to ask a lady her age," the mother warns.
"It is not polite."
"OK," the little girl says, "how much do you weigh?"

"Now really," the mother says, "these are personal questions and are really none of your business."

Undaunted, the little girl asks, "Why did you and daddy get a divorce?"

"That is enough questions, honestly!" The exasperated mother walks away as the two friends begin to play.

"My mom wouldn't tell me anything," the little girl says to her friend.
"Well," said the friend, "all you need to do is look at her drivers license. It is like a report card, it has everything on it."

Later that night the little girl says to her mother, "I know how old you are, you are 32."

The mother is surprised and asks, "How did you find that out?"

"I also know that you weigh 140 pounds."

The mother is past surprise and shock now. "How in heaven's name did you find that out?"

"And," the little girl says triumphantly, "I know why you and daddy got a divorce."

"Oh really?" the mother asks. "Why?"

"Because you got an F in sex."

hahahaha!

that was pretty funny

*laughs* Funny stuff.

Back on the topic (and by the way, hello again. I realize it's been awhile ), I take this issue as something very close to me personally. I recently started dating a young lady who is very deeply commited to God and is very earnestly striving to stay within God's will (and believe me, it took me a long time to find her!). As we stood in front of her door at the end of our first date, I was having a serious mental debate with myself. I was going back and forth between whether or not I should kiss her; the debate raged on for several seconds (which can be an agonizingly long time when you're just standing there thinking), and I finally decided to put the question up to her. I half-jokingly said to her, "I can't decide whether I should kiss you or not. What do you think?" She responded with, "Well, actually, I've made a pact with myself not to kiss anyone until my husband...." I hadn't heard of many people who did this, so I was a bit shocked at first. However, I really thought the idea was a pretty cool one. It showed an enormous amount of respect for both herself and her future husband (whether that be me or not).

However, we've been dating for about two and a half months now, and things have changed a bit. At first, the whole "no kissing" thing didn't really bother me. I was having plenty of fun just being around this girl and getting to know her. A good night hug was always more than enough to satisfy the both of us. There were other forms of physical intimacy between us (cuddling on the couch while watching a movie, etc.), but we managed to avoid kissing. However, as we got further and further into our relationship, it became obvious that both of us were very much wanting to kiss the other. This definitely was not a matter of "lust" for each other, nor was it a question of just wanting to kiss for the sake of kissing. We have kept our relationship focused very much on God and are very careful to keep lust as far from our minds as possible. This was just the fact that we had both grown close enough and felt comfortable enough that kissing was the next natural step in our relationship. I prayed very sincerely about this the night before the last time I went to see her (last Saturday), and I felt a sense of God saying, "If it's okay with her, it's okay with Me." (note: that quote from God may be a bit paraphrased )

So off I went. On the three hour drive to where she lives, I prayed very sincerely for me to not stray from what God wants from my relationship with this girl. I didn't want to let it become an entirely phyical relationship, and I was going to do everything I could to prevent that very thing. I got to her house and we went off on our date.

Later on, after dinner, we were sitting at her house watching a movie. We were very close and cuddly, and almost on accident, we kissed. It wasn't a long kiss, nor an entirely passionate kiss. Just a short, sweet, "a-peck-because-I-couldn't-stop-myself" kind of kiss. I didn't feel like we had done anything wrong, and after consulting her and confirming she felt the same, I asked her what we should do about it. She implied that while she felt bad for breaking her promise with herself, she also admitted that she hadn't expected herself to keep it. Before I left, we prayed together that God would continue to steer us in the direction that he wants us to go and that we wouldn't let the physical get in the way of our spirit of worship while we were together. I left her house a very happy man that night.

All in all, I think the person who wrote the above article is a bit fanciful. While in theory this is a very noble concept, in practice it's just not very effective. While I do agree that it's not something that should be taken lightly, it's also not something that should be kept sacred until marriage. But I suppose it's just each to his or her own.

Welcome back carmack

I believe you are correct, she does seem a bit "fanciful" - we must watch ourselves daily, lest we fall.. but I think it's possible to be romantic in nature to include a leetle kissing in a dating relationship without it turning into a hunka hunka burning love...

not when done right tho

Bring it On!

That's what I figured... you'd be a bad influence

....was it good for you?

hmm...now it's been six months, John.

Things change, you've got that right. Hmm...although I might seem a bit "fanciful", i'm going to give my side of the story.

Ok, I made the promise not to kiss anybody romantically until I got married when my ex-bf moved to Alaska. (some of the story is in Girls' World...haha too bad for the boys! ) I made this commitment to myself, and at the same time without really emphasizing it, I made the same commitment to God. I was so into it, and I didn't realize how many people looked up to me for this comnitment. I also realized that this would be a hard thing to keep, especially when I would start dating again. But, I wanted to keep it to be proud of what I could accomplish.

Well, things change (redundant, I know), and well, I met John. John did do the right thing by asking me if he should kiss me at that first date. I got some strange remarks from my friends because they thought I rejected his offer. I was a little peeved and taken-aback by the kind of support they didn't show. But, life goes on.

So, John and I started dating. I really started to pray about this commitment because my mind kept telling me it was ok to kiss him. I wanted to, but, like John said, not for the sake of kissing. It was weird, the day that we did kiss, I kept praying and praying that God would show me whether or not it was ok. And, when it happened, I knew it was fine. I did cry a little (I know, I'm a wuss ) after it happened because I really wanted to keep this promise, but at the same time, I didn't.

Because of the long amount of time that I had been in this commitment, I only remembered making the promise to myself. I had completely forgotten that I made it to God, too! Forgetting that aspect, I told my fellow good friends and John that I only broke the promise because I only made the commitment to me and not to God...big mistake.

After that wonderful day in March, I kept feeling a tugging at my heart like something was wrong. I didn't know what it was, so, being human, I ignored it. I went to church camp and finally on the last altar call, I knew that I really needed to figure out what it was. I prayed, and prayed, and prayed some more. I just wanted to figure out what was the matter. hmm...I won't tell you the whole story. Neways, the next week, after John left, I had a revelation. I finally knew what the problem was....I had lied to all my friends, including John. I HAD made a promise to God! Boy, did I feel like a doofus... In fact, one of my friends even told that she thought that my promise was a cool one, and she was disappointed when I broke it.

So, I apologized to my friends and John. And, decided that again, I would make the promise to God. It was a hard decision to make, but I prayed about it all, and I think that is what God wanted/wants me to do. I am not kissing anybody romantically until I get married.

I do not regret ever kissing John. Never will I ever regret it! It needed to happen, for many reasons. God said it was ok for it to happen, and I definitely learned from my mistake.

Boy, it's tough, and I do have times when I want to kiss John, but God gives me strength. I do believe that it is a good way to show "enormous amount of respect" to my future husband. I know that this will all work out for the best in the end because God's will is more than I expect. When I am weak, I try to remember how romantic it will be on my wedding day...oooo.

Although it is tough to keep, I know I made the right decision. I pray that I can keep this promise to myself, my future husband, and to God. God has a ton in store for me...

I don't really know where to stand on this subject. I was raised to treat girls with the upmost respect (and I thank my parents for raising me that way). I have never been to big on fighting, but there has been many times I had to have been held back from beating a guy who had said something disrespectful not only about this one girl, but about women in general.

But I just can't see how kissing can be bad. If the relationship is rolling along smoothly, then a simple kiss doen't seem bad. In my opinion, it's saying "I love you and I'm willing to spend my life with you if that's what God wants."

Now I will admit, I did go a little to far with a girl once. We had just met, we started kissing, and one thing led to another. We didn't have sex though. We stopped ourselves and didn't say anything else about it. I feel really bad about it and, being Catholic, I need to go to confession for it.

But kissing being bad in itself, I don't see it. I don't think there should be a big deal about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by davidb81:
But I just can't see how kissing can be bad.
But kissing being bad in itself, I don't see it. I don't think there should be a big deal about it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now, David. I didn't say it was a bad thing. I just made the decision for myself. I do not think it's wrong for somebody to engage in kissing (depending on how far they go).

John and Sara... aaahhhh.... the pieces start to fall into place Great that you guys know each other up there

I believe this topic is a close relative to our "touching" topic not too far from here, in that the Bible doesn't specifically say to not kiss, but there are other thoughts and activities it may lead to if given a little time, a little leeway, and done right Kissing can definitely be affectionate without being sexual, it would be between you and God in making a decision to abstain from it tho. For most people, it's a requirement in a dating relationship

Yeah Baybeee

LOVE that banana

Well, it's been a really really really really long time (really looooooooong time) -- did I mention it's been a long time? -- since I kissed anyone. Years. That sounds a little pathetic considering my age, but it's true. But to be perfectly honest, it's not because I think it's wrong, but because I haven't had the opportunity. Dang.

Anyway, I think that, when put in perspective here along with the other um...heated discussion we have been having, we can see a parallel between the two.

The Bible never actually says that kissing before marriage is wrong. It's one of those things (I believe) that is between you, God, and in this case your kissing buddy, partner, whatever you wanna call them.

It's definitely a matter of progression in a relationship; I don't believe in kissing on the first date...or the second. There's no real cut off time when I think it's the right time...that's one of those things that is pretty much up to the level of the relationship. I am with embie on this one, and I don't take kissing very lightly at all. In fact, when I am in a relationship (have I ever...? oh, yep I've been in a few I just have to think waaay back ) and we finally have that little moment where we actually kiss, my feelings tend to change for that person just a little... There is something very intimate and even sacred about kissing to me. Maybe it's just cause I'm a sentimental silly girl...who knows?

I believe that kissing was designed to be something shared only with someone who you are in a close relationship with, and I don't think you should be in a close relationship with someone unless marriage is a possibility. As Christians, we do have that responsibility not to causually enter relationships just because there is nothing better to do or just because we are lonely and someone came along that can help you temporarily...so I do think that kissing should be saved for the person you think could be your forever mate.

However, I do believe that kissing is not something that must be saved for marriage unless that is something that God has put on your heart. It is very admirable for those who honestly have made that commitment, but also very very difficult to keep, and could cause some unecessary tension between couples.

With the benefits of kissing also comes the responsibility to keep your hormones in check...cause nothing will get me...*ahem* riled up faster than a good kiss. But that is where you have to communicate with your partner beforehand so that together you can ward off situations that could cause potentail trouble...

I don't know why I just wrote 10 paragraphs to essentially say that I think this is another "between you and God" issues...maybe I was just bored. *sigh* (or maybe I just wanted to talk about kissing. )

hehe...and after seeing that Allen allready posted what I just said (in many less words) a few hours ago, I guess I could have not said that.

I got kicked off line while I was typing that and just got back on to click reply; sorry for the reduncancy.

Good post, Michelle.

Confirmation from another is always good, besides, it woulda been a waste to not post those thoughts after you already typed them all out

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by foreverchanged:
Well, it's been a really really really really long time (really looooooooong time) -- did I mention it's been a long time? -- since I kissed anyone. Years. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think someone's making up for lost time

heheh

On the way to the ski retreat I was driving while in colorado, so I got to choose the radio station. I ran across this Christian station and James Dobson was interviewing Joshua Harris (author of 'I Kissed Dating Goodbye' and the newer 'Boy Meets Girl'). I like the guy but idda know... he does seem a little altruistic. God calls us to purity in thought and action, but good gravy! Josh is setting a standard for us most will never reach. No kissing... ever.. before marriage?

huh!?!?

Anways, the last night of the retreat Dave Edwards was speaking... a very funny speaker, Dave is in his late 30's/early 40's somewhere and has never been married/ remains a virgin. He winds around to points constantly lacing his talk with comments that are really jokes with points if you are quick enough to catch them.. if not, he slows down until you do During part of his talk he spoke of a woman he met in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil that did the translating for him while he spoke at the different high schools. Beautiful, smart (multi-lingual and an attorney) and Christian, Dave talks about falling really hard for her. Once his mission trip was over, he planned to return to Rio in 4 months to see her again. She wanted to show him all her favorite places in Rio. A couple of places into the tour, she took him to the Christ the Redeemer statue on the Corcovado, overlooking the city of Rio. Truly majestic, it stands 100 feet high and speard its arms 100 feet wide.



He tells of standing in the shadow of the statue, perfect weather, slight breeze, beautiful skies, seeing miles and miles in every direction. It was in this majestic scene he's overcome and they kiss for the first time.

It was at this moment in telling this great story he says one of his asides - "Even Josh Harris would have said 'You know, you've got me there'".



You had to be there, but it was funny, especially to those of us who had listened to Josh for an hour or so on the way there

That wasfunny.

...and regarding my goals for this year...I have loosened my stance on kissing...ALOT

mmmmmhhmmmmm... figures... go without it for a bit and see where the standards drop

...alas...a bit is a relative term...

If it is with relatives you need to get outta that state...........

How do you spell dope?...

S-T-E-V-E

Someone from arkansas was president a bit too long... it's spread to connecticut

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Allen:
Josh is setting a standard for us most will never reach. No kissing... ever.. before marriage?

huh!?!?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">times like these make me wonder whether or not allen is reading Girl's world

putting that thought aside, i would like to say that it is a standard that i hope to live up to. it has been hard, but it the long run, i will see why God has made me go through this endeavor. can't wait to see my future husband's reaction to this goal.