</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by foreverchanged:
You're right to a certain extent, but you can't see it from a woman's perspective. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">right on both counts, and that's where more communication comes in from those who are supposedly so much better at it

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by foreverchanged:
Ummmmm... No. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">.

rats

Hey, I am a firm believer in communication. I've gotten much much better at it lately, too.

I can see dat

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Allen:
really? care to expound on that?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Allen:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by foreverchanged:
Ummmmm... No. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">.

rats </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

I don't think my past sexual escapades have any bearing whatsoever in this discussion, nor does my lack of wishing to expound on them show poor communication on my part, thank you.

Hey for the first time in I dunno how long, I agree with Allen, and I think that women really are at the advantage point when matters of sex are concerned. I think that we (both women and men) have taken turns with alterior motives where sex is concerned, and although one might have more "noble" motives, that doesnt mean that women are any less guilty of manipulation. Personally, I think women have a heads-up on the sex issue, taking into consideration that men are rarely at a lack for desire, women are the ones who usually "make the call" so to speak.

Man, I can't believe that I admitted to totally agreeing with ALLEN !

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by anangelsarms:
Hey for the first time in I dunno how long, I agree with Allen, and I think that women really are at the advantage point when matters of sex are concerned. I think that we (both women and men) have taken turns with alterior motives where sex is concerned, and although one might have more "noble" motives, that doesnt mean that women are any less guilty of manipulation. Personally, I think women have a heads-up on the sex issue, taking into consideration that men are rarely at a lack for desire, women are the ones who usually "make the call" so to speak.

Man, I can't believe that I admitted to totally agreeing with ALLEN !</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">miracles never cease

You HAD to copy and repost the WHOLE thing ?

It's like the old saying goes, it takes two to...

If a woman says no, a man generally respects that.

I thought this would be a "cut and dry" subject, but I've been pondering this question for hours.

It so happens that a close guyfriend of mine and I touched on this subject recently. He and I have been accused by our former partners of using them. We were both at a loss. Although we both agree with the mutual benefit of the sexual relationship, we differed in the fact that I had long term plans for the relationships whereas, he did in some cases and some cases he didn't.

Although I don't generally feel used, I could understand how a woman would feel as though she were used for a few reasons.

I think because we women are more emotional by nature, that sex becomes more of a bond between a woman and a man. I myself tend to get more emotionally attached to the guy after I've had sexual relations with him, but I also happen to enjoy that aspect of the relationship very much. (As before I have said that this is the greatest of my weaknesses). After a break-up it is more painful for me when I've been emotionally attached than when there aren't much emotions involved. However, some women may feel as though they were used because they may have more of an emotional investment. The perception of the break-up by the woman may be altered by her emotions whereby she believes that his using her could be the only justification.

Although I typically enter a sexually exclusive relationship with the anticipation that it works out, I also realize that it may not...it's a gamble. About two years ago I was engaged to a guy who I thought was absolutely perfect. It broke my heart to end the relationship for reasons I do not wish to discuss and took me about a year to recover. Although I've been sadden by break-ups since, they've never been as crushing. The difference between these situations were the stakes involved. Some may feel they've been used by the importance they place on the relationship. If the relationship was more meaningful to the woman as opposed to the man, she may grudgingly come to the conclusion that he was using her.

And in most of my relationships I've been treated with respect, kindness, honesty, and love. Because the intentions and directions were generally clear, confusion, misunderstanding, and heartache was minimal. This last reason may seem extreme, but I think women feel they were used when they are in situations where men have been deceitful, dishonest, disrespectful, and cruel throughout the relationship. Although I don't understand why anyone would stick around very long for such a punishment, I know of a couple of acquaintances who follow in this category. In this case these women feel and justifiably so that they are being used but they choose to continue the "relationship".

Go figure...

(These reasonings are by no means clinical or even logical; just my opinions)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by anangelsarms:
You HAD to copy and repost the WHOLE thing ?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">evidence I couldn't believe it myself so I had to be sure

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Brenda:
It's like the old saying goes, it takes two to...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> really ?

You whole post really speaks to the reasoning behind "no sex before marriage". It completely clouds the judgement and reasoning of both parties in regards to the direction and depth of the relationship. Feelings that otherwise wouldn't be there are brought to the surface and the relationship is thought to be more than it is, or even more than it had the chance to mature into. We tend to overlook signs of whether we are compatible or incompatible because we are so into the newness of the relationship + we have the dizzying effects of a physical relationship really hendering any critical thinking.

It's nearly impossible to pull back and assess the relationship for what it is and could be, so either the couple rushes into a marriage without really knowing each other or they split up once the newness wears off.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

I totally agree with what you said there, Allen. It does bring something into the relationship that was not meant to be there until the relationship is sealed before God.

I have a friend who is under the impression that I'm being abstinate because I am afraid that God will punish me if I have sex. He just doesn't get it...and I'm trying to think of the best way to explain it to him, because maybe a little bit of understanding will help him in his own life as well.

I have a few scriptures that I'm waiting for the right time to discuss with him...one of them sorta caught me off guard when I read it, because I found out that there are different types of sin even if there really aren't different levels. The scripture is found in I Corinthians 6:18:

Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.

Not only do we sin against our own body, but we are helping someone else (our sexual partner) sin against their body as well as complicating the relationship in the ways that we've previously discussed.

Sex is not a way to get to know a person...but when we enter into a premature sexual relationship, we sell ourselves short. Being involved sexually clouds other aspects of each others worth and ability to contrubute the the relationship in other ways, and often causes us to mistake sexual chemistry for personal compatibility. True, the chemistry or attraction has to be there, but it should not be the main staple of the relationship...because you can go just about anywhere and find someone who makes your sparks fly. It's the rest of the relationship that should be the focus, the foundation...the bond that will hold strong when the hard times come in.

Re-reading many of these posts, I wonder if the sentiments and convictions are the same or harder to keep once we do become involved in a relationship? It's easy to say we won't when we aren't...I know for me, this might be very difficult...

I know that especially this time of year, I find myself just wanting to belong to someone.


Family and friendly relationships satisfy in a very important way, but the romantic and intimate aspect (not the sexual part...) is missing. (...and yes, there can be intimacy without sex... )

I find it much easier dealing with not having anyone to love than I do dealing with not being loved...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by embie:
I know that especially this time of year, I find myself just wanting to belong to someone.

I find it much easier dealing with not having anyone to love than I do dealing with not being loved... [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Woman did ya have to go there...I've been trying to avoid thinking about it this year..it's the first time in forever that I will be without a "romantic" involvement (though the past few years I've been fooling myself into romance that probably wasn't really there) other than my kids and it's very difficult. I have to agree with you there that it is easier dealing with the not having anyone to love rather than fooling myself into thinking I am loved which I have done for several years. Someone I use to consider a friend and a romantic involvement always quoted "People are going to do what they 'want' to do" and that's so right...you can't make anyone feel anything all you can do is feel what you feel..suck it up and move on..there's hope for next Christmas though..I've got a year to work on it

Ouch you gals!!

I am not single, nor female so I can only relate a tiny bit to the spiritof what you are going through. Without a lot of input into the relational end of it I can refer you to: This Weeks Devotional which touches on how to get through life. God bless ya!

Great message Steve

Yes, it's easier to not have someone to love... it's called avoidance It's called not sticking your neck out there to let someone know you might be interested for fear it might get chopped off

bahhh... women. Can't live with them, can't chop them into little pieces and spread the evidence

Risk... gotsto understand that it's got to be done or you let the good one(s) pass you by.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

The rest is just loneliness... it's a fantasy that we can skip the risk part and get straight to the 'happily ever after' part. You can't get there from here

Thanks Allen, I needed that reminder

Steve...great word... (but don't tell anyone I said so... ) Dipping once again into that Spiritual well...

Haze...Your situation is a lot different as you are trying to cope with all the dynamics of a recent loss. It's harder for you, I'm sure, and I will be praying for you.

I've been alone too long now I think. I'm not sure that it wouldn't be difficult to give up my independence and have to start caring about someone else's needs. Sometimes when the kids are asleep and I'm all alone and it's quiet, I am at peace and I say to myself that this isn't so horrible. But then other times I could actually cry for the void in my heart where love used to be, or I think this heart must just hurt cos it's overfilled with love meant to be given to someone.

I don't think I'm doing good by my children either. For one, my son would love to have another male around, just for someone to understand his "boyish" reactions to things. And also when my daughter and I have some meaningful conversations, she says that she just wants to have kids and take care of them like me without needing a husband. I don't think that's a good way for her to think. Sometimes I appear too self-sufficient. They think I can do and be anything, but that's only because I have had to. You do what you must to survive. I can't imagine going it alone for the rest of my life. I need that support that comes from someone that loves you. Just someone to listen when you've had an awful day. To be there when you're strong, and moreso when you need to be weak.

It's not about avoidance, Allen, at least I don't think it is. I have only seen a few men since I have been divorced. It didn't seem right though. It's been so long since I have "dated" someone seriously. I have met a couple men that I would love to start a relationship with, but there has always been some hinderance. Mainly it's been proximity to where I live.

How often have you been the first one to tell someone that you were interested in them? That's what scares the socks off me. Especially if I think there isn't any way this could work out...
Then I think, is this all in my mind? Is there a mutual attraction here or is it me just hoping for it?

Every year I "resolve" to simplify my life. But I always seem to manage to further complicate it. You remember Whitney Houston's song from the Bodyguard? "So goodbye, please don't cry, we both know I'm not what you need..." I have this fear that I am too much work for someone. Too high maintanence. Too many walls to break through. At least that's what I'm left feeling since my divorce. My daughter told me I'm worse than the husband on "Sleeping with the enemy"... ROFL

Walls...definitely. Excuses...maybe.

These are not your typical issues. I take pride in being such a unique creature...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by embie:
It's not about avoidance, Allen, at least I don't think it is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">oh really? :


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by embie:

How often have you been the first one to tell someone that you were interested in them? That's what scares the socks off me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">bock bock bock



We usually wanna think our situation is way different from others', but we usually are more alike than not. I can think of 6-7 other females on this forum alone who are in very similar circumstances....

nothing ventured nothing gained...

It would be a lot easier Allen if you men GOT A CLUE!! Many men wouldn't get it if it hit them in the head... Which means us women have to be totally honest with you... not easy, the risk of getting hurt is a big factor

Look who's talkin Allen...I noticed that you conveniently avoided asnwering this question:

Originally posted by embie:

How often have you been the first one to tell someone that you were interested in them?

What if you weren't sure of the other person's feelings, how easy is it to open yourself up for rejection?

...and I love your funky chicken imitation...

As did you.. You answered my question with one of your own

Anyways... I'd say, 9 times out of 10, if it's to be, it's up to me... There are some females who'll come right out and say they are attracted to someone, but they apparently aren't swedish:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by aleina:
Which means us women have to be totally honest with you... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> not that!