This is the thread that I'm starting for the two new guys, forgive me lord & Mr. Niceman. I will start off with one question asked by each, and try to answer it to the best of my ability, and leave the door open to anyone who wants to add to, change, or disagree with anything I say...keeping in mind that I'm just your average 23 year old, not a Bible scholar, saint, or claimer of any profound knowledge. Now then, let's get going.




1. God did show himself in human form once, as Jesus. We killed him. He came back (much to the disagreement of Mr. Niceman) and then went back to join his father. If God showed himself in true form, we would have no choice but to believe. He wants us to have a choice, because love without choice is not true love at all. Just think if your wife loved you only because you controlled her thoughts...not quite as satisfying as having her love you for who you are, is it? Not really...so we choose to believe in him or not...we choose to love him or not.

2. Because man has made religion and man has found taken many enlightened humans and chosen to worship them as gods. Even the Bible speaks of "idol" worship...which is the worship of a false God. To some cultures, they do not know of the true God, and so they worship the God that has been passed down to them through the generations...but God was God from the beginning of time...there never was a time when he was not. (sorry Mr. Niceman, I'm not trying to speak in riddles here, tho it may sound that way...)

3. Darwin renounced his own theory on his death bed. Why do you think that was?

Okay, now one from Mr. Niceman, and then I have to go home.



Did Tom ever perform a miracle before your eyes? Heal the cartlidge in a wounded knee in medically impossible time? (ask our own Allen about that...) Heal a terminal cancer patient overnight without treatment? (My friend's cousin) Make a brain anurysm disappear? (My aunt) Heal a severed tongue in seconds (that would be mine when I was only 4)...

Just a thought...

I'll try to go back later and catch the rest of questions/comments...but I have a little girl with a tummy virus at home.

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: foreverchanged ]

Please accept my appologies for my earlier refferal to passion, I hope I have not offended anyone, the wife says it doesn't happen very often anyway
I agree with Mr Nicemans animal observations, can a pet or animal not show love if we show it to him/her. Of course it can! Can it show grief and pain, yes indeed.
I take you back to my childhood and my pet Alsation, "Troy", who, when jumping over a barbed wire fence (razor wire) in his youth, duly caught and discarded his "sensitive parts" on the sharp edges.
Did he feel pain, Oh yes.
Did he feel grief, Oh Yes.
Did he feel love, from me and me family, and at a time of need, Oh Yes.
I helped the dog through his trauma and was repaid by affection and love from the animal for years. It was a sad day when he died.
So, yes an animal can love and we can love an animal. But wheather God exists for animals, that I don't know. Surely God exists for believers, can an animal believe?, read about my dog above, I think it answers that question.

Mr. Niceman and forgive_me_lord,

Going back to the Darwin bit...
Darwin only presented a THEORY, not a way of life or belief. Keep in mind that he died a saved Christian.

-Brian

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Spitfire1982 ]

Speaking of theories

I am church shopping. I went to a new church this past Sunday for the second week in a row. I think I have found a home. /

The pastor spoke on evolutionists and creationists and how scientists have such struggles with the idea of a Creator. They all need/want facts.

He told us a story about Sir Issac Newton and his theories about physics and light and celestial revolutions. So one day he presents this model of all the planets in perfect organization and rotation around the sun and when he was asked who made that for him, he said...No One, I just opened my closet one day and there they were...they had arranged themselves all hanging there in perfect order and balance.

I just thought that kinda hit the nail on the head for me...and of course the gentleman had made his point. Things just don't evolve.

Michelle is right about the "mystery" of God. He doesn't "show" himself to all of us because He wants us to choose Him. What he does is reveal Himself to us in so many ways. The revelation is the invitation to draw closer. YeeHaa!

Forgive me Lord, I am sorry that I took a wrong approach to your post. I do appreciate your reply though. Thank you for that.

I'm sorry but I find these kind of comments deeply disturbing.
Do you really think it is wise to tell people to have 'Faith' in the lord and expect their cancers to be cured? That is bordering on Manslaughter.
I have lost my mother and almost my own life due to cancer. The only reason I was saved was due to my own common sense and a good doctor.
I was operated on and underwent Cheamotherapy for 6 months to cure me, I am an aethist, that was not god that cured me, just a greater human understanding of the human body and medicine.

I would never wish Cancer on anyone here, but I 100% guarantee you would lose 'faith' when you yourself found that you had Cancer and found it was spreading rapidly.
No matter how hard you pray, cancer is an agressive, volatile disease that can has no control, and i guarnatee you 'Praying' for it to go away will not cure you.
I can respect most of your unfounded claims, but if you witheld yourself/son/daughter from medical treatment for cancer, you need your head looking at.
I cannot believe you believe yourself sometimes?

I put to you one scenario now.
You are diagnosed with cancer tomorow, do you rely on faith to cure you, even though you can feel the tumours growing by the week, or do you lose faith and resort to treatment?

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Mr Niceman ]

Apart from the human race and all living species around us.
Evolution is the way we were created, we evolved over millions of years from apes, you still have the remains of your tail bone at the base of your spine, the cocyx.
All of our ancestry can be traced via remains, or is archeology just made up?
Are you saying that? If you aren't then clarify.
You are in no way in any place to disregard evolution without any scientific proof. Find some proof and get back to me.

Hey MrNM

My dad had/has cancer so I know what a sad and debilitating disease it is. I don't think Michelle's point was that if you don't have enough faith, you won't be healed. I think she was just relaying events that have happened in her life that she has witnessed that could only have been from the hand of God. I have come up against Christians that will tell you you are sick because of your lack of faith...To that I say BAH! I also believe that the Lord equips the doctors with the right tools, education, practices, and support groups to work their "magic" on patients. I think the faith we speak of here lies in the promise of eternal life, not the faith that God will cure all ills. Death by cancer or any other means is only an end to this earthly life. For those of us who believe that Christ rose, ascended and is coming again to bring His church home, have a promise to hold on to. If I was diagnosed with cancer today and was given only a short time to live, I would be thankful for what time I did have. I would turn over my "cure" to my Father's will and pray for the safety and well being of my children when I depart. I would then be preparing my heart to meet my Savior.

And let me add, that ALL healing is temporary. We will all die at some point. My concern isn't so much for this life, but for the next. If I have the choice, I'd choose an eternal life in paradise over this one any day.

I'm leaving for home now and have an hour commute. I will post a response to your other point about evolution later tonight.

PS...How's your dog?

Just a reminder that everyone here is "just people", none have all the answers to life's mysteries. We, like you, are searching for those answers...

There are countless instances of illness==>>prayer==>>no illness. Does that mean everyone who prays is healed? Of course not. Do we understand why some are and some aren't? No to that as well. It doesn't discount the fact that it does happen without any other medically sound reason.

Common sense and wisdom do go a long way in preventing and curing disease and most of life's ills. This common sense includes choosing qualified medical help when needed, I work at a hospital, so does my mother. I believe anyone who forgoes medical attention for something obviously necessary is not quite sound in the head. I remember my grandmother used to tell me (when I got after her about not wearing her seatbelt) that she's never had an accident because her gaurdian angel was riding with her. I told her "grandma, when you drive over the speed limit, your angel gets out".

Common sense is required in most of life's circumstances. Those who've lived a while understand common sense is not very common. It still doesn't in anyway discount faith, prayer, hope, or belief in a higher power.

WWWOoooooaaah!!!! Hold the phone!!!!!!

I never ever ever said that you shouldn't go for medical treatment!!! Where did I say that? Did anybody see me say that???

Okay, calming down...no, that is not what I meant at ALL.

Nor was my point that if you have enough faith you will be healed or that, without faith you cannot be healed.

My point was all directed to Mr. Niceman's comparison of God to an imaginary friend. My question (which you didn't answer at all) was did Tom ever do anything. God does...Tom didn't even drink the tea...

Okay, now I'll go back and read the rest of the comments...I just had to stop in the middle of that and clarify what I meant.

God gave the doctors the knowledge that they had...I fully believe in Chemo, radiation, herbal therapy...whatever. That's why God gave us doctors and medicine. So let's not think that I'm some kind of wierd fanatical freak who would let their child die before bringing them to the doctor. Took mine to the doctor yesterday, and I'm giving her antibiodics and tylenol...

thanks...

I'd like to add a few things here, lets see if I can put my thoughts into words

If a physical God exists, why doesn't he show himself in his natural form?
Do you only rely on your eyes for proof? If you can't see it, does that mean it does not exist? Of course not! There are tons of things we can't see but we still know they exist. Take any emotion for example. Can you see it? No, you can only see the expression of it, but you still know it is there. It is the same with God.

Why do different races/religions respect a different deity, when surely there can only be one allmighty?, the creator.
The three largest religions all say that there is only ONE GOD. Then there are variations of that, Islam with Mohammed, Christianity with Jesus and Jewry(sp?) waiting for Messias to return. I think it is logical that there is only one God, because there is nothing more powerful than God himself.

Because man has made religion
I think humans sometime give God too many human qualities. And some people use God for their own purposes. And then they call that religion. Religion in itself is a tool that us humans either use or abuse... So is God about religion? I dont know, I cant answer that - anyone else?

How can God forgive someone, this is making him sound like a physical entity
I think you forgive with your heart(not physically), soul and spirit and not your body

So, yes an animal can love and we can love an animal. But wheather God exists for animals, that I don't know. Surely God exists for believers, can an animal believe?
If an animal can love then I think that is because they have a spirit. And spirits come from God. Maybe they don't need to believe??

About science... being educated and interested in that field myself, I do appreciate facts that scientists can bring forward. Take symmetry for example. How a flower is built, how a molecule consists of atoms, how the nature can be described with math - it gives us a greater understanding of how beautiful the world really is and it can also give us a new respect for faith and that there might be a God after all. Universe is too complicated and brilliant to be the result of some random events!

Do you really think it is wise to tell people to have 'Faith' in the lord and expect their cancers to be cured?
No of course not! But it can help you get spiritual healing and maybe that can increase your physical strenght!? Miracles - or things we can't explain - do happen. But it is our choice, or responsibility if you will, to go to a doctor, have surgery or whatever is needed, and not wait for those miracles to happen.

Your questions really made me think - thank you

aleina

Just wanted to share this:



You can find that
here.

And now this.



That's found in girl world, where only the chicks have access.

My point...she's alive and well and she did rely on God's hands as well as the physician's. Just thought I'd share that with ya.

Proof...the athiest's all want proof. Why is that?

Why don't you try for a while? Prove to me where "it" came from...

That's right...I want to know...what started evolution...the big bang?? It just happened?

Let's say we did get here from evolution...okay?

What did we evolve from? You swear humans evolved from monkeys...and mokeys evolved from whatever and so on and so forth...so what did they evolve from?

We had to start somewhere, and I find it ironic almost to the point of being preposterous that someone can discount God's existence because "It doesn't make sense." They ask "Where did God come from and how could He always be there? Impossible!"

"We had to start somewhere"...I say, and they say "rubbish".

So is with the theory of evolution, Mr. Niceman...we had to start somewhere...where the heck did that come from??

Don't tell me we have to start somewhere...


Just as you can't fathom the concept of God, I cannot fathom the concept that something so compicated as (not even the body) but the human brain could ever be evolved from one teeny tiny microorganism. Impossible.

oh, I've seen induhviduals that I am pretty sure still have a one-cell organizm for their brain...

It takes one to know one.

And to add a few quirks...

if we evolved from apes... Why are there still apes?

I am with Forgiven... give me some proof that there is no God.

innerdawg

Who's forgiven? Oh, I'm forgiven...yes I am..forgiven, confident and gifted. (the first draft of my contract btw whit-dawg...simple but effective.) But my name is forever.

And to go along with that ever-crunchin dawggie dawg's question...are we still evolving? What will we evolve into?

I have a few suggestions for the male species

3. Darwin renounced his own theory on his death bed.

No he didn't. He might have. Or not. We don't know.

aleina

Here is an authoritative and informative article that cites its own sources and does not rely on conjecture to prove that we did not/ could not be an accident. (not my own) I will try to dig up another one I have that uses simple math to show that the human race is not more than 7000 years old (actually 5000 because of the flood) Anyway this is the first page of the article and I will have a link at the end so that you can read the whole thing. It is in MS Word format so it is easy to print and download.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Evidence of Creation

* Copyright Policy *
This article is a work in progress and is intended to be an informative summary of the
topics discussed. Readers who are interested in further study of these topics are encouraged to consult the resources listed at the bottom of this article, which can provide very extensive evidence on these and related creation topics.

Creation Evidence and Evolution Myth

Matthew McGee
This article is divided into the following sections:

Introduction
Definitions of Terms
How Rocks are Dated
Evidence of the Young Age of the Earth
Radiometric Dating
Rapid Processes
The Geological Column
The Laws of Thermodynamics
No Simple Cells
Apes, Men, and Frauds
Punctuated Evolution
Evidence of the Global Flood
In Closing
Good Resources for Further Study


Introduction

Our textbooks, televisions, and newspapers commonly teach, as though it were proven
fact, that the earth is 4 to 5 billion years old. But what is not commonly taught is how
the scientists determined that age. What assumptions did they make? What evidence
did they use? What evidence did they discard?

We will examine these questions in this article. We will see that the scientists began
with the assumptions that (a.) the general theory of evolution is correct and that (b.)
creation is incorrect. The scientists did not come to these conclusions based upon on
an examination of the evidence. They simply made these assumptions from the
beginning. We will also show that they use some of the most unreliable measurements
available as evidence that the earth is very old, while at the same time they discard
the overwhelming majority of the evidence which shows that the earth is very young.
They also attempt to reinforce their error by claiming that various geological processes
took millions of years to complete, even though there is ample evidence to prove that
these processes took place very rapidly.

Go Read The Article {{{CLICK HERE}}}

*edit thanks Aleina, one letter capitalized that shouldn't have been. That'll teach me for not checking it out!*

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: SLattier ]

Steve, I get File not found......

aleina