Been thinking about some stuff... and since thinking too much on your own is not a good thing, I thought I'd post some questions here

When God is teaching you things, can that process involve suffering or pain? And if so, why? Is it because the emotional memory is so much stronger than the brain memory? God stands for all that is GOOD so why is His methods sometimes not that pain free?

Thanks for any input

aleina

Hey Sista!

God does not author disease and pain (on believers) but will allow believers to make choices in which bad things are the outcome (aka contracting aids or breaking a leg) and will allow things (like genetic disposition to addiction or diseases) to happen. Being God He shows up in those situations and ministers and uses the opportunity to teach.

Psalm 81:11 "But my people would not listen to me; Israel would not submit to me. [12] So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts to follow their own devices.

Ezekiel 20:25 I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; [26] I let them become defiled through their gifts--the sacrifice of every firstborn*--that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.'

Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. [25] They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. [26] Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. [27] In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. [28] Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. [29] They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, [30] slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; [31] they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.


That type of thing accounts for a tremendous amout of the pain and disease in the world including murder and such. Then there are accidents. Does God contrive accidents to get to His people? I can't find in Scripture that he ever did. There are many that are of the opinion that "all things come from God" That is just not supported in scripture either. Here is proof.

JOB 34:10 "So listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do evil, from the Almighty to do wrong.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints,


I hope this helped in some way!
God bless ya!

Thanks for the reply Steve! Here's some more questions for you well maybe random thoughts is a better description

and will allow things (like genetic disposition to addiction or diseases)
I have a friend with an addictive personality. He was drinking too much and also used some drugs... But in the end, he realised he would end up dead if he continued like that. I'd like to think God gave him the strength to save himself

The whole passage Ezekiel 20:1-49 is some pretty powerful stuff!

God does not author disease and pain (on believers)
But God would do that to non-believers!? I guess the purpose would be to punish them, teach them something, give them another chance to choose God over evil or all of the above!?

Like some chapters where God kills Israel's enemies; did they deserve what they got? I read a question on a Swedish board about that; how could God kill innocent children that were among those people? The theory in the reply was that maybe bringing those children home to God was the only way to save them! What do you say about that??

And how about the pain we can feel when we don't understand what God means? We want to but our mind, and even our soul, is so limited... How can we deal with that frustration?

There are many that are of the opinion that "all things come from God"
It can't be because we have a free will. WE are of God, as God created us, but if OUR ACTIONS are sinful then those actions do not come from God.

aleina

Good thoughts Aleina

One qualifier though. I was thinking this weekend and God did maim one beleiver in the Bible. Jacob in Genesis 32:24 Though it does not mention that he had any pain.


Gods judgement on the sinful is a struggle many people have most especially where God gives the edicts to slay all the children and even the passage in 2 Kings



Several things that were going on then that we can't conceive of, not the least being that you don't insult and taunt the annointed prophet of God for the whole nation of His covenant. Then we must realize that God is not fair and what happened to those children was not fair, but God is just and HIS justice is far superior to our own. Those tribes and nations were also Noah's seed that had fallen away after the flood and repopulation of the earth. They were into ritual sacrifice, they would even slaughter their own children to appease the gods that they served.

I think most importantly was the lesson that our sin can bring judgement on our whole family. There are many examples of that.



I love this next one because this sparked a revival among the heathen!


As far as mental anguish, that kind of pain there is a verse for that as well.



If you know anything about the smelting of purifying process for silver then you know that careful precise heat must be applied so that the impuruties will rise to the top so that they may be skimmed off, too hot and it destroys it, too cool and the impurities won't come out. The silversmith used to hover over the pot of silver as it heated until he could see his reflection in it, that is when it was pure. God heats us and skims our impurities as they float up to the top. then HE watches us carefully until HE can see HIS reflection in us!!!!!! That is when we are ready.

Thank you LORD for being my refiner!

A good book on this subject would be The Problem of Pain by C. S. Lewis. He is a former atheist turned believer, and he talks about the problem that he had with the belief that a fair, just loving God would allow such pain.

I was thinking to myself last night (as I have spent alot of time thinking lately) about this subject. I have found myself -- for the first time ever -- doubting the existence of God. *shocked silence*

And yet in the midst of my doubt, who do I find myself asking questions? None other than the one I was doubting. That's sort of a catch 22, and to me, it just further proves the fact that there is no possible way He doesn't exist.

But I found myself asking Him some questions that I will probably never have the answer to...and I guess that's okay. Because His ways are so much higher.

I asked Him [in anger], "Was it worth it??? What is so fair about YOU making the choice to create us with the choice to love You knowing that if we made the wrong choice there would be so much pain for us? How is that love? Why bring such suffering into existence all from the need to feel loved? Isn't that selfish??? You knew that we probably wouldn't resist satan's temptation, and that we would eventually fall. You could have just created us with no free will. No choice. Yes, you would never experience the joy of love freely given to you, but is the love of a small few really worth the pain of so many???"

All He would say to me is "Yes. It is worth it all."

How is that fair? I want to know!!!

And all He would say is "Your thoughts are not my thoughts."

Do we, knowing that a child will endure some form of pain and suffering during their lives, choose not to bear children? Obviously not...babies are born every day. Does that make us cruel? I guess God is the same way...only if we love our children, then He loves us so much more...

And I guess it's worth it...if we can learn to stick it out and run the race that we know has allready been won...but it hurts...especially when you fall and it seems that there is no one to pick you up. But He is always there with outstretched arms...just waiting for us to reach to Him. But instead of reaching for Him, I tend to get angry at Him for the mistakes of those around me. When the people that He has put in my life have failed me because of their lack of insight or because I set my expectations of them too high...when it seems that there are no tangible hands reaching to pull me up...rather than reaching for His hand, I would rather sit there in the spot that I fell and bleed.

Is it self pity? Immaturity? Do I just enjoy the pain? You'd think I'd learn...

So I guess it's not really my place to question the pain...(although I frequently step far out of my place)...but rather just accept that it is a part of life, and that if I can resolve myself to the belief that it is worth it all, then it will be worth it...in the end.

Coming in on the tail end of this thread and not reading the posts before yours, I can only offer that the only person that will never fail us is Jesus. Whether we make the expectations too high or those around us fall short doesn't really matter cos we are imperfect people. We have to accept our friends, family, peers with all of their short comings. What we should probably be doing is asking God to change us to make us more forgiving than to ask for Him to fix others...

God told us there will be trials and tribulation. Not if but when we face them...No one will leave this world unscathed. His promise was not for this life, but for everlasting life. What He did leave us with was His Holy Spirit that will walk with us, guide us, carry us as we need Him, and never leave us.

Pain is the result of our (collective) own doing, our own choices, our own insecurities, our own sin. From the fall of man there has been pain. Not something the Lord wanted for His creations, but something that we inherited from the garden.

Most of the "kill all their family, including their women and children" came about in the Old Testament too... the age of The Law and it's "eye for an eye" teachings... Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it, so in this Age of Amazing Grace you don't see God commanding people to slaughter whole nations. Jesus died for them too.

Free will is where pain and suffering come in. We take the first drink and the 400th. We take the first toke on a joint and so on. We get into a car and not paying attention, lse control and smash it into a tree. There are chances we take with free will, but it's so much better than being a puppet on a string.

As you know, I haven't posted in a while. I have been around, but felt like I had nothing to add of worth. Then, I stumbled across this thread, and realized that God was grooming me " for such a time as this."
I will try not to ramble on and I want to hit all the points, but if you don't mind let me first start by encouraging a great friend. Foreverchanged, it's ok to feel like you feel. In fact I think it is even scriptural. So many times we see Christ telling the disciples... it's not about what you do or say; or if you "look and talk 'religious'" it's about having a true relationship with Your Father.

A true relationship has it's up's and down's... its definites (if the spelling is right) and its not-so-sures... and working through those is what makes it strong. I would rather be a man (or woman) who questions to know, than one who accepts without knowledge.

Now, in the same breath, I will also say that it is very easy to give into pour pitiful me thinking and say well I don't know if HE really exists and so I am just going to waller here until HE proves Himself to me. DON'T LET SATAN STEAL YOUR JOY!!

Christ says that his burden or in the Hebrew "yoke" is light. I have done a lot of research on this passage and if you study "yoke" it was and still is today a Rabbi's teaching principle. What Christ was saying is (paraphrazing of course ) "You can be like the Rabbi-- if you realize that HE will be the one who makes all the decisions, understands the reasons, has the ending figured out, etc.... His yoke we are to take up is simply THROUGH FAITH to know that HE is GOD!!

He is the Author and finisher of everything. Which I wanted to touch on for Steve. It is scriptural that all things came from God. Genisis 1:1 states " In the beginning God created..." Before God there was nothing. And if sin, pain, suffering, etc. came into existance then where did it come from? And if God did not create it are we to assume that there is someone else out there "making things" besides God? And if we are to assume that, then is HE truly the ONE True and living God. I belive that He had to create everything in order to set the boundaries that would cause us (get ready foreverchanged...) to question.

Why?

So we would finally figure out that it is so monumental that we couldn't possibly have the answers and if we can't supply the answers then we can only add to the problem. And as a good disciple, we will as Christ said time and time again FIX OUR EYES ON THE RABBI AND FOLLOW HIM.

And after contemplating and contemplating and contemplating-- (like the computer on the 80's movie WAR GAMES) we will realize that it is easier not to play. I believe that God wants us to go back to the "Eden" mentality where we relyed on Him for everything and we spent all of our time just LOVING HIM.

But we need to realize in the good times, hard times and the lonely times, sad times, all things are going great times, I can't feel HIM times and all other times that our true Faith comes from "just believing" for no other reason but " TO BELIEVE."


Remember HIS yoke is that you let HIM do whatever, and remember that HE is GOD.

innerdawg

[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: whit-Dawg ]

[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: whit-Dawg ]

[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: whit-Dawg ]

Bumping this for a friend; I said that I had lost my faith for a brief period of time...this is during that time. There are some great points made here by some wonderful people. Hope you get something out of it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by aleina:
Been thinking about some stuff... and since thinking too much on your own is not a good thing, I thought I'd post some questions here

When God is teaching you things, can that process involve suffering or pain? And if so, why? Is it because the emotional memory is so much stronger than the brain memory? God stands for all that is GOOD so why is His methods sometimes not that pain free?

Thanks for any input

aleina </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by holyisthelamb:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by aleina:
Been thinking about some stuff... and since thinking too much on your own is not a good thing, I thought I'd post some questions here

When God is teaching you things, can that process involve suffering or pain? And if so, why? Is it because the emotional memory is so much stronger than the brain memory? God stands for all that is GOOD so why is His methods sometimes not that pain free?

Thanks for any input God is good and loving and everything He does is true. He allows us to go through pain and suffering to remind us of how powerful he is. If everything in our lives where pain free and stress free we would not need God. We should recognize Him in the good as well as the bad.When our lives are painful we need to cry out to Him and ask for direction and comfort. God gets our attention through trials and tribulations. So when something isn't going right for you and you are feeling pain go into your corner with God and pour your heart out to Him and He will send the Holy Spirit to comfort you. God Bless

aleina </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Welcome holyisthelamb

If you'd like to reply, just type in the white box at the bottom of the topic. and click on "Add Reply"