</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Matthew:
... But I have a question that I would like you to answer, Nabster.

Why does Christ so very often tell those who witness special things to keep quiet about them?

After most miracles that Christ performed He told the person He healed to "tell no man" (Matthew 8:4, Matthew 9:30, Matthew 12:16, Mark 1:44, Mark 5:43, Mark 7:36, Luke 5:14, Luke 8:56; there are many more. I'm not going to quote the verses (there are too many), so you can either trust me or look them up yourself). When He went to raise Jarius's daughter from the dead, Mark 5:37 says He specifically only took Peter, James and John, His three most faithful apostles, to go with Him (Luke 8:51 says it better, and sorry, I forgot - her parents were there too). There are also the instances where Christ's apostles received revelation, and were told by Him to not tell anyone about it - Matthew 16:20, Matthew 17:9, Mark 8:30, Mark 9:9, and Luke 9:21. Why would Christ say this? unquote

(reply)
Okay, here we go. Jesus asked his disciples and others who witnessed miracles not to make it known for several reasons. 1. there were times when he did not want to set forth his Messiahship to early in his ministry and hasten the very controversy he knew His works would cause. Even later He forbid His disciples to make it known (Mt.16:13-20). He made no public claim of his messiahship at first , he simply did the works that the prophets had predicted the Messiah would do. 2. He wanted people to fulfill the law and offer the testimony that Moses commanded in such cases (Lev.14:4,10,21-22). In each case it would have to be known to the priests how one was cleansed and this should be sufficient proof of His Messiahship to the priests. the Rabbis taught that cleansing lepers would be characteristic of the Messiah, so His very works proved it before He was forced by opposition to make such claim for Himself. 3. He wanted to shun popularity and human acclaim and the evil effects of "mob clamour" to make Him king. When this did happen he got away from it all(John 6:15-21). By this He knew it was time for hIm to declare Himself to the people, so never again did He say "tell no man" as in Mt 8:4; Mk 8:26,30; Lk 5:14; 8:56; 9:21. 4.Jesus set an example of putting healing to the test before testimony is given for them. Any real healing will stand any kind of test. any person maintaining he is healed when he isnt, is unscriptural.(end reply)


(quote by Matthew)
Also Christ's curious manner of teaching - parables. His explicit purpose in teaching in parables was so that not everyone would understand them (Matthew 13:10-14). He only wanted to preach to those who were ready to hear Him, and because He couldn't really control who heard His words, He spoke in ways that He knew would confuse most people. Why not just be plain and tell everyone what He meant instead of trying to hide His teachings from those who were not ready for them?
(end quote)

(reply)
reasons for parables: Matthew 13:10-17 gives first ereason and Matthew 13:34-35 gives the second reason. reasons overall; to reveal truth in an intersting form and create more interst(v 10-11 and 16) to make known new truths to interested hearers(v 11-12,16-17), make known mysteries by comparison with things already known(v 11), conceal truth from disinterested hearers and rebels at heart(v 11-15), add truth to those who love it and want more of it(v 12), take truth away from those who dont want it and hate it(v 12).(end reply)


(quote by Matthew)
And then there is what I consider the most sacred act in the entire Bible (in all history) - Christ's suffering in Gethsemane. Matthew 26:36-37 and Mark 14:32-33 tell us that Christ did not even let His disciples go and watch, except again for only 3 - Peter, James and John. Isn't that just a little bit odd?(end quote)

(reply)
There were three occasions in which Christ took the same three men.Mk 14:33, Matthew 17;1, and Luke 9:28.
Some of my study notes say because these were the same three men who witnessed His transfiguration and now they witnessed His agony as well. The witnessing of the transfiguration ends with Christ saying "tell no man until the Son of Man be risen again from the dead." He was preparing all along the way for the testimony of these three men to be complete from experiences with Him. (end reply)


(quote by Matthew)
There are a lot of things I could go into to try to answer your question, Nabster, but first I would like you to answer this one. Why does Christ seem to be so secretive so often in the Bible? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I hope I have clarified some things for you, my friend. God's plan through Christ is so perfect, that just upon the naked reading of the Word it is difficult to comprehend. Cross reference and study commentaries by other inspired scholars is the only way I can make sense of it sometimes.

In general the timing and "tell no man" scriptures were for a reason and had to do with how other people would react had there been claims of Messiahship too early in His Ministry.
Nabster

First off, just so we don't have any false pretenses: in case you didn't know, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If you had read all of the Mormon thread you'd know that, but just in case, I'm very Mormon. Also, I didn't ask that question seeking clarification, I asked it to illustrate a point. Now that that's taken care of, on to your reply.

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Okay, here we go. Jesus asked his disciples and others who witnessed miracles not to make it known for several reasons. 1. there were times when he did not want to set forth his Messiahship to early in his ministry and hasten the very controversy he knew His works would cause. Even later He forbid His disciples to make it known (Mt.16:13-20). He made no public claim of his messiahship at first , he simply did the works that the prophets had predicted the Messiah would do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've heard this before, but I'm not sure I agree with it. As early as Matthew 3:17 God the Father proclaims from heaven that Christ is His Son. In Matthew 9:6 (Luke 5:24) Christ forgives sins - that's a pretty clear statement right there that Christ is the Messiah, for who else could possibly claim to forgive sins? And from almost the very beginning of John Christ professes His Messiahship (John 4:26 is the first clear reference I found, but John 3 says it, just a little more indirectly). He did make pretty clear statements of His being the Son of God quite early in His ministry, before He commanded others to "tell no man."

I'm really not sure what you mean by point #2, so if you think it's important you should state it a little clearer.

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3. He wanted to shun popularity and human acclaim and the evil effects of "mob clamour" to make Him king. When this did happen he got away from it all(John 6:15-21). By this He knew it was time for hIm to declare Himself to the people, so never again did He say "tell no man" as in Mt 8:4; Mk 8:26,30; Lk 5:14; 8:56; 9:21.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But, as I stated earlier, Matthew 3:17 is a direct declaration of His Messiahship, before those other instances, and Matthew 9:2-6 is very confrontational with the Pharisees, proving to them that He has power to forgive sins, thus making Himself the Messiah. Both of these are before Matthew 16:20 and Matthew 17:9, where Christ instructs His apostles to "tell no man."

I also don't understand what point you're trying to get at with #4.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
reasons for parables: [skipping some...] conceal truth from disinterested hearers and rebels at heart(v 11-15), add truth to those who love it and want more of it(v 12), take truth away from those who dont want it and hate it(v 12). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bingo. Right on the money. But I would like to add a bit of clarification to this passage myself. In verse 12 Christ states, "For whosoever hath, to him shall be given... but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath" (Matthew 13:12). If you go to blueletterbible.org and look up the meaning of the word "hath," you will find that it can mean things such as "to hold oneself to a thing, to adhere or cling to" - in other words, to follow a teaching (in this instance, Christ's). Now what does this mean? It means that your receiving more knowledge is entirely contingent upon you properly using that knowledge which you have already received. If you have applied the teachings you have received, and followed the commandments that have been given to you, you will be given more; if you haven't, you will lose that which you have been given. Christ also teaches this principle in the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30): those men that used their talents and gained more were given more by the Lord, and the one that didn’t use his talent got it taken away, and he was cast out.

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There were three occasions in which Christ took the same three men.Mk 14:33, Matthew 17;1, and Luke 9:28. Some of my study notes say because these were the same three men who witnessed His transfiguration and now they witnessed His agony as well. The witnessing of the transfiguration ends with Christ saying "tell no man until the Son of Man be risen again from the dead." He was preparing all along the way for the testimony of these three men to be complete from experiences with Him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your explanation of preparing Peter, James and John sounds possible, except for one thing. Couldn't Christ have done that while everyone else was there too? Why would He command His other disciples to stay away (Matthew 26:36, Luke 8:51)? He could have prepared Peter, James and John just as well with His other disciples present. So that explanation is incomplete at best. Come up with something better.

In regards to #4, pertaining to healing, there are and probably werre during Christ's time, men who claimed healings who were not. Medical science and authority ,then and now, verifies one's healings as truth.
Christ desired many healings to be verified(such as lepers).


Matthew, have you a better explanantion? Please share if you do. I spent considerable time researchibg and studying this. I have answered your questions with ifo from Matthew Henry , Dake, Greek Hebrew study Bible and Spirit filled study bible. The scholars who penned these commentaries are in my opinion right on the money. And cross referenceing of them shows they are all in one accord on interpretation. To me it is logical and the statments made are scripturally supported. For you to say come up with something better, i do not understand.
Let me ask you this, Why SHOULD Christ have had ALL his disciples present? I do not give much weight in questioning things that really and truly IMHO dont matter. If he had one two four or 12 disciples present, i dont see any significant difference it could have made.

I didn't mean to get you upset with that last bit; I hope you're not. If you are I apologize. Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. And now that you have, we can get to the point of all of this.

You asked about "secrecy" in Mormon beliefs. This is my attempt to show you that Christ did in the Bible exactly the same thing we do.

Since you didn't respond to the bit about teaching in parables, I assume you agree with it? Well, then, if we apply what Christ taught to the practices of the LDS Church, they line up. The only thing in my church that can in any way be considered "secretive" is the temple ceremony. Anything else you could ever want to know about my religion you can find out either by talking to someone or by going to mormon.org or lds.org. The reason we don't talk about the temple ceremony is the same reason that Christ gave - you have to have "adhered or clung to" the knowledge and commandments you have received (by following and believing in the doctrines of my church) before more will be given, and if you haven't followed and believed in those things, you will not be allowed to learn more. It's the same principle Christ taught.

So, moving on to another aspect of it - why Christ only took 3 apostles.

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If he had one two four or 12 disciples present, i dont see any significant difference it could have made.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Exactly - that's why I can't really agree with the explanation of Christ "preparing" Peter, James and John, because He could have done that without excluding the others. So we have to look to something else. I say it's because what He was doing was extremely sacred (raising a child from the dead, being transfigured on the mount - which included hearing the voice of God and seeing two past prophets - and His suffering in Gethsemane). When something is that sacred, you don't just let anyone go and see it. Only the most righteous, or the most committed to Christ, are allowed to go and watch - hence only the 3 most devoted apostles. The reason for this has to do with the reason I explained above, that you have to be faithful to what you have received in order to receive more, and also to the principle of "do not cast your pearls before swine." Certainly the other disciples weren't "swine" in the sense that the Pharisees were, but I think this statement can also be stated as "do not cast your pearls before people who aren't ready for them." If the pearls are bigger than Christ's regular teachings (as the transfiguration and such are), there will be a much higher standard of faith you have to meet to be considered "ready for them."

We consider the temple to be a very sacred place, where the predominant activity is learning. In not letting just anybody enter the temple, in both cases (the part about learning and the part about it being sacred) we are backed by Christ's statements and actions in the Bible.