I ran across an interesting few scriptures while studying recently and wanted some opinions/ study further:

John 20: 19-23

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Jesus Appears to His Disciples

19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't remember seeing these before and wondered what's actually going on here.

A Catholic comment on this. When He siad Thou art Peter and upon this rock I build my church. The Catholic belief is that Peter was the first ordained Pope/Bishop of the church. At the time of telling them to receive the Holy Spirit and making them confessors, it equates to ordination and them being the first priests.

Makes sense, I had just never read before that the Holy Spirit was given before the day of Pentecost. Why in the other 3 Gospels do you think He kept telling them to hang around until they rec'd power from on high when it appear like it happened before Jesus left them?

Until that moment the Disciples had not healed or baptised, after that they were empowered and went into the nations.

As an aside even non Catholics have long agreed that Peter was the "head" of the early church. Even the other apostles looked to him for guidance. There is significant evidence to suggest that he is actually burried under (in the catacombs) the alter at the Basillica (sp) in Rome that carries his name.

Matthew 10:1
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">AND when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It appears that the power to heal is somewhat separate from the Holy Spirit. I agree that the Apostles didn't recieve the HOly Spirit until the day of Pentacost, but Jesus gives them power to heal and cast out spirits pretty early on in their ministry. Verses 6-8 of Matthew 10, Jesus sends them on their way for their first mini-mission, so-to-speak and commissions them to preach the gospel, heal the sick and cast out devils.

Mark 9:14-29 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And when he came to his disciples, he saw a great multitude about them, and the scribes questioning with them.

15 And straightway all the people, when they beheld him, were greatly amazed and, running to him saluted him.

16 And he asked the scribes, What question ye with them?

17 And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;

18 And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.

19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.

20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.

21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.

22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here we see that the disciples are actively trying to cast out devils and have probably done it before, as evidenced by their surpirse that they weren't successful in this case. Jesus doesn't say to them, "You couldn't cast him out because you don't have the power to do so," he says, "Oh, by the way, with this kind of evil spirit you can't cast him out without a lot of prayer and fasting."

Aside about Peter: I too agree he was the head of the "early church." However, I don't consider "early church" and "Catholic Church" to be synonymous.

If they didn't receive the Holy Spirit until pentecost, then what is meant by verse 22?

"22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit."

I have no vested interest either way, just wondering.

Just a thought, but when we (Mormons) give the Holy Spirit to someone, we lay our hands on their head and state the words "recieve the Holy Ghost" with the implication being that it is incumbent on the person recieving it to go out and actively pursue it.

For example, if you are given a gift, there is action required on the part of the recipient (i.e. you have to actually take the gift in your hands and unwrap it). The same is true with the Holy Ghost, when you are commanded to "recieve" it you must actually take it (purify yourself to be worthy of it) and unwrap it (listen to it). So perhaps what Jesus is doing here is telling them to prepare themselves for the coming of Holy Spirit so that they are worthy to recieve it.

I am going to look into the greek and see the actual words origins for "receive the holy spirit". it may be different from the actual Baptism of the Holy Spirit as was received on the day of pentecost. Scripture does say that when Jesus was to go to be with the Father He would send the comforter(Holy Spirit) denoting that the fullness of the Holy Spirit would not be realized until His departure from earth. the Holy Spirit has been around us since inception of the world. So I am not saying He has been absent from us. Just that the fullness would be realized upon Christ's ascension into Heaven. Good post there Allen...
Nabster

Thanks nabster, your thought helped me. Since the Trinity has always been "receiving" the Holy Spirit was always confusing to me. Your word "comforter" helps with the confusion. It does make sense (at least to me) Ingeneral and before the trinity was taught man could receive comfort in knowing God. Once Jesus was aomong men he was the present source of comfort. Whe He went to His father, the Holy spirit took over. Am I close?

Yes , i believe the scripture supports the fact that when Christ was here on earth He was physcally unable to be omnipresent since he was in a mortal body. however upon his ascension the Holy Spirit came in fullness to draw men to Jesus omnipresently(is this a word? hehehe). Why else would Christ say He would SEND the comforter?
Nabster

This is one of several examples of where God used the term "breathing on" to receive the Holy Ghost and it appears to be synonymous with the actual Baptism in the Holy Spirit as far as power endued upon those receiving. But it is definitely not to be confused with the infilling of the Holy Spirit as defined by the laying on of hands, or the supernatural infillings on the day of Pentecost.
This according to the Zodhiates Greek/Hebrew Study Bible.
God bless and FILL you all with the all comforting and all loving Holy Spirit of the One true Living God.
Nabster

so have we come to a conclusion....did he giveit before or no sir???