Hi,
This is all new to me but as this is the start of a new year, I feel I must clear my sins with the Lord.
I've never been to church since my Mother got remarried again last year, so i'm not upto scratch with all the singing thing.
May I leave my introduction at that for now, I'll pop back when the Lord has given me the courage to spill my guts as it were.

Thanks to all and I will be back.

Conversion in progress!!!

I also am new, I heard about this website in church today, a lot of people swear by it.
I hope to find inspiration from our dear lord as I'm currently going through a rough patch which has involved me commiting adultery last night with a rather unsavoury character.
Forgive me dear lord.

Niceman

Proud to see more fellow Brits out there Welcome to the site!

Cheers
Brian

Hey and welcome to this site! Nice to see more Europeans

aleina

Thanks for the warm and heavenly welcome. I can feel the love through my laptop screen,
I am looking for salvation at the moment and I wish sometimes Jesus would sweep me into his arms and we could skip through lush green fields together (avoiding cow dirt of course)
Here's a though, "Why ask why?"
If anyone has the answers, let me know.
Thank you one and all,
Peace

Thank you all for your kind welcome. I hope not to make a nuisance of myself by asking a few questions on the good book, remember I'm new to this.
Q1, Has the bible actually got an ISBN number?, just curious.

Q2, Can i get one free from the church as I don't get a lot of money?

Q3, How can I ask the lord for forgiveness without actually talking to him?, I am not the most law abiding citizen on the Earth, only last week I stole a blue anodised dust cap from a parked car, (some-one stole mine before), did the good book not say an eye for an eye? (cap for cap )

Q4, does anyone know anything about electric toasters? mines is not working properly and I keep swearing at the burnt remains it spits out?

Thank you in advance.

Originally posted by forgive_me_lord:
Thank you all for your kind welcome. I hope not to make a nuisance of myself by asking a few questions on the good book, remember I'm new to this.
Q1, Has the bible actually got an ISBN number?, just curious.
I wouldn't know, I got mine from a Hotel-(forgive me lord)

Q2, Can i get one free from the church as I don't get a lot of money?
as above
Q3, How can I ask the lord for forgiveness without actually talking to him?, I am not the most law abiding citizen on the Earth, only last week I stole a blue anodised dust cap from a parked car, (some-one stole mine before), did the good book not say an eye for an eye? (cap for cap )
thats fine, in the lords eyes eye for an eye is a very real and riteous means of payback, amen
Q4, does anyone know anything about electric toasters? mines is not working properly and I keep swearing at the burnt remains it spits out?
Check your timer control switch, it's a variable resistor, seated in line with the control logic on the PCB's in your heavenly bread burner (Give us this bread, our daily bread my lord) Replace that and you should be sorted
Thank you in advance.

no problems

Welcome both of you, great to see you here

1. & 2. http://bible.gospelcom.net - the easiest way to search the Bible and study, tho one in hand is easier on the eyes

3. Asking for forgiveness is just that, we put a lot of limitations on our faith unless we "simply come" and ask. He is waiting for us, we don't have to go to Him for forgiveness.

Also, we could never expect perfection in you, as we don't have it in ourselves, you'll find several people on here not quite as law-abiding as we should be

4. toasters are pretty simple, whatcha wanna know?

Thanx again for responding, I'll just keep coming in here now and again if thats ok?

Nice to meet some people who don't critise me or laff at me.
The toaster problem is summin to do with a sticky button I think, it won't swith off, a little wd40 may help I think!!

So if God comes to us, how do we know when he's there? Does he have a special knock like the Masons or summin?, I've never met him, asleep or awake, or have I?

I remember when I were a lad, we held seances for a laff, you know the score, 16 cans o lager, a good curry, fight at the back of the chippy then up to your mates house with the glass and bits of paper. Anyways, I always conected with my Grandfather (not the clock ), and he said that there is no place called heaven or hell, only an afterlife, is this true, how do we know?

Thanx again.

God is present at all times around us, except when we are in the shower, (he closes his eyes then, he may peek, but only brielfy) watching our every move.
As for seances and the afterlife, what did your Grandad say it was like, is it white and cloudy, or does it resemble our dear earth as we know it?

WWWWWWWwwwhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaatttttttttttttsssssssssssssssss up "New Dudes?"

Here's a question to ponder to hopefully help you answer some of your questions.

How do we know when He's there? What if HE is everything? Can He ever leave?

Don't worry so much as to whether there is a Heaven of hell yet... first we have to figure out if He really exists. Baby steps have always worked better for me.

innerdawg

My Grandad was a deaf mute, also blind due to a stroke at the later stages of his Cancer. So he couldn't really stipulate on the afterlife scenery.
Gets you thinking how he could see the bits of paper though???

How can God be everything and never leave, Is religion simply about making up the most bizaar and surreal responses to questions that you can possibly think up, or is God a fictional apparition that was used to 'explain away' all the unquantifiable arguements and events of the ancient world?
Is there one God? If so, who's Allah, does he live in heaven with God, running the local corner shop on Heaven road or does he exist in a parallel Heaven, never meeting our almighty Christian father?
If each religion has their own gods, can I create my own religion, write my own bible, and create my own set of beliefs and preach to everyone that this is how it should be?
This is how religion is created, it's simply a collection of proverbs and beliefs to hold together the mentality of a race that cannot understand why rain falls, the sun leaves the sky and why lambs are born in spring.
I am struggling with the whole concept of religion at the monent and need some answers.

By the way, if adam and eve are our founding basis for the human race, surely were all inbred?

Peace

[ 01-13-2002: Message edited by: Mr Niceman ]

forgive me:
I am not really in a position where I have alot of time to answer any other questons, but if you would like to send me your mailing adress in the form of a private message, I will send you a Bible...

And a warm hello to both of you.

Please don't fill my head with untrue opinions, I'm only starting to find God and you're telling me he does not exist?
C'mon, how many people go to church or chappel on a Sunday to pray to some ficticious deity. If this were true, the lord would have no following would he. Rather like Blackburn Rovers or summin.

I think you should keep opinions like that to yourself not on these boards, a place to speak about the lord not against him, shame on you, you heathen!!!

Sorry for that outburst, I know I'm new here but such nonsense just eludes me

I'm feeling rather unstable at the moment so please guide me....

Heathen? That's not very christian.
I never said he never existed, I was just questioning how he existed and in what form?
What is troubling you dear child? Maybe we can all help you, if you need answers, I think you have found the right place for it, there seems to be some strong believers here, and some disillusioned ones also.
I'm also struggling with the world at the moment

It's perfectly correct to question the existence of God, we aren't mindless puppets who babble nonsense. We're all searching for God in our lives. Questioning God or even if He exists isn't forbidden or "sinful". You are always welcome to ask questions in this vein... we won't have all the answers but are happy to help where we can.

Allen, look what I found, another link to add to the collection

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=swedish

I registered here back in October and this place is really great! No Sunday School answer, but honest opinions on a very interesting subject. I think we are all searchers and you both are welcome to join us

Why ask why? Because if you don't ask, how can God or anyone answer you? If you are wondering about something, or something is bothering you, the first step is to find the right question - and then you can focus on coming up with some answers

"God" to me is the ultimate good. That is a basic thought that I return to when/if I have doubts.

aleina

Mr Niceman...who do you find to be disillusioned here and why? Just curious.

I have a little input, tho I don't really know how helpful it will be...

forgive me:

Your question about "God's knock" really struck an interest in me. I can only answer from experience here when I say that the answer to your question is yes. God does have a special "knock". It's not a knock that you can hear with your ears...you can't feel it's vibration with your hands...you can't see it with your eyes, but rather you can feel it with your heart. God's first few knocks are usually calls to repentance.

Ever felt really sorry for something you know you did wrong? That's a "God knock". He's calling you to repentance. I know you must have heard that knock, because here you are, asking for forgivness. And this is something that I have to remind myself often: once you asked for forgiveness, you are forgiven.

You said: Q3, How can I ask the lord for forgiveness without actually talking to him?

You can't. But all you have to do is say (and mean it) Please forgive me, Lord.

Satan will try to take God's call to repentance and use it as a tool of shame and guilt. If you feel to shameful to turn to God for forgiveness, then Satan has won. But God says that there is nothing that can separate you from His love.

So you took someone's cap...repent, and don't do it again. Think of how you felt when someone took your cap, and treat others not as they treat you, but as you want them to treat you...

That is what Jesus is about. Love...I hope that some of that may have helped in a small way...please feel free to ask any questions...between all of us here at this site, we will do our best to help you understand...and the rest is up to you and God.

As for you, Mr. Niceman, I'm not exactly sure where you stand...does God exist to you or doesn't He? I can't really tell...maybe it's because you aren't sure yourself? Do you believe but are having doubts? Do you not believe but are beginning to question your unbelief? What's causing you to struggle? Little info, please?

Michelle, i think my signature says it all "Jesus wants me for a Sunbeam- But i'm afraid of heights"
I guess I'm an aethist looking for answers, but too afraid to commit to God due to the highly flawed nature of religion, it is based on tales and make belief. Nothing makes sense, yet in some cases it does, some people talk of god as an object, which he physically cannot be, others talk of him more as a feeling that is experienced by a decent person, guilt, love pleasure etc.
When I say disillusioned I am refering to not one person.
I am talking about people who talk in riddles that make no sense, some comments seem to me to border on the insane?!
I will stick around looking for the answers, you seem to talk sense Michelle,
I think religion is merely a way of having a positive outlook on life, rather than a bearded bloke floating on clouds issuing 'forgiveness', forgiveness is to be found in yourself, it is not given to you by 'God'

I see...and respectfully disagree.

But I will say this about forgivenss...you're halfway right. Some people are forgiven by God long before they forgive themselves...like me for instance.

But I do wanna touch on one issue here. Religion, this is not. I won't say that I don't believe in organized religion, because I do support certain churches...but not any certain denomination...and I most certainly would not put religion above God. God is not about religion. The Old Testament was rules...the New Testament tells us about grace, and it tells us that there is only one line drawn clearly in the sand, and you are on one side or the other. It doesn't say anything about baptists being on one side and methodists on another and pentacostals in the middle and suchnsuch somewhere over there on the side.

Religious and doctrinal arguements are a waste of precious time here as you can see if you look around that we have but one topic on here where we have been debating back and forth on one particular issue (Once Saved Always Saved) for a year and none of us has gotten ugly with each other yet...

The rest of our discussions are mainly about relationships which has completely replaced the religion when it comes to my priorities (as well as the that of most of the people here on this site).

So if you came here expecting religious arguements, then you'll probably be a little disappointed...but if you enjoy good discussions and debates back and forth, questions, fellowship and fun, then you might just like it here.

None of us will claim to have all the answers...we are all searching. But keep in mind that if you think someone is speaking in riddles to you, they probably aren't...they probably feel that what they said is crystal clear...we all have different means of communicating.

You seem like an interesting sort of person...would you mind answering just a couple questions?

First of all, what about religion does make sense to you? {you did say that some of it made sense}. Care to ellaborate?

Hey new guys <img src="graemlins/wavey.gif" border="0" alt="" /> I'm embie.

Welcome to PJ. I'm not one of the old timers here, but I can tell you that since I have been posting, this has been an awesome place to debate, relate, and just enjoy each other. We all have our ups and downs and moments when each of us question and struggle. But I believe that while we walk this planet, our charge is to love and support one another. If you stick around, I'm sure that's what you will find here. You will be respected for who you are as people, and not by the denominational badge that you might wear.

I was going to ask if you two belong to the same church. It is quite ironic that two blokes from the UK should happen upon us at the same time. But since Mr Niceman told us he was atheist, that must rule out that theory I was also curious about your birthday...unique, eh?

If you don't mind sharing, where in the UK are you from? I have some dear friends that live in the West Midlands, and more in Manchester, Northampton, and Coventry. I was supposed to visit over the Christmas holiday, but chose to stick closer to home while things were still unsettled in our country. I will be traveling in the fall tho...

About all the questioning, you have gotten some great thoughts on that. If we don't question, then we will not grow. I would hate to think that I already know all there is to know. That would be really boring. About religion, religion hurts, it did in the OT and it does today. Jesus knows our hearts and He wants us to know His. That can only be accomplished by setting aside those things that keep us in bondage and allowing Him to draw us nearer. We stand only by grace, and it's only by grace that we can get up once we slip. And slip we will. We are human, there is only One perfect person. There was a gift given to us many years ago that allows us to be forgiven (even if it's over and over again). That was the gift of salvation, given by the Son. His love outweighs any sin we can or will commit. Death and sin were finished on the cross. Our only requirement is to reach out and accept the gift. Jesus Christ. /

Glad to meet you...hope to post with you again soon.

Just sayin "hey" again myself

One more thing to add to all the great stuff above - we accept you the way you are, you won't find us trying to shove something down your throat. We are, however, open to some good discussion about where you are coming from in your beliefs/non-beliefs - it's always good to discuss such things to understand each other and dig within ourselves to see what we really believe.

Uno mas.. if it seems like I am talking in riddles, it's because I am not that good at expressing myself, tho I try. If I say something unclear, or doesn't make sense, or looks like it is skirting the issue, call me on it and I'll try to be more clear

Sorry to keep this sceptisism going, Mr Niceguy's got me thinking. If a physical God exists, why doesn't he show himself in his natural form?, you know like "hey, I'm God. pleased to meet you". Has he got something to hide? hit with the ugly stick when he was a child?
Why do different races/religions respect a different deity, when surely there can only be one allmighty?, the creator.
Was Darwin correct in his theories on evolution?

So many unanswered questions, I'm getting in a right pickle here.
I'm not sure if this is the place for me, being so confused and all that, no-one can answer the questions can they? only theorise on the subjects. Everyone has beliefs which I respect, but I am a man of substance who requires answers, not theories. What is the meaning of life? Monty Python was close!!

How can God be everything and never leave...
I am sorry for throwing out such a general statement. I was just sharing some of the questions that I have been asking myself for the past couple of months. I too have a lot of questions about who exactly God is and I want you to know that you are not alone in your quest for the truth.
Some one asked me tonight who is Christ? And I have to admit I was at a loss for words. I guess being a Christian I should have had the "right answer" but I didn't. Does this mean that God does not exist? Or does it mean that I haven't search for the answers hard enough.

I realized that I was giving answers that others had given me instead of those which I had figured out for myself.

Is religion simply about making up the most bizaar and surreal responses to questions that you can possibly think up... Yes I believe so. Christ tells us that it is about knowing "the Father" not about any preordained religion.

He asked the desciples ( and I believe He asks us still today ) Who do you say I am?

What I mean is that Religion in it's purest form should be finding truth. We need to look at these questions that we cannot think up and strive to understand them instead of covering them up with "well this doctorin believes this etc..."
We have made religion into the answer instead of the means to an end which is finding out what is real or not.

Is God a fictional apparition that was used to 'explain away' all the unquantifiable arguements and events of the ancient world?

Christ's whole life was centered around just the opposite. He constantly butted heads with those who considered themselves "religious" by specifically answering these questions, yet we ( I believe just for the sake of arguing) turn our eyes away from the truth and quit looking at the facts.

Facts

1) The bible has 66 books, which were written by 40 different authors, spanning over 1500+ years and they all agree to exactly who and what God is. I can't even get two of my friends to agree on which team was a better team in the NFL.

2) The people who wrote the New Testament died martyr's for their beliefs in what they wrote. They chose to be beatenand killed before they had taken back anything that they had written. This begs the question: Why would someone die for something that they did not believe was true?

3) The coming of the messiah is the focus of the Old Testiment. This is predicted in over 300 places. These prophesies are so specific that they predicted Jesus' birth place (Micah 5:2), His nature(Isaiah7:14), his works of healing and miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6), His betrayal for 30 pieces of silver (Zachariah 11:12-13), His suffering (Isaiah53), His style of execution (in a time when crucifixions were not practiced), and His resurrection. These prophesies were all written 400-1000 years before Jesus' birth, yet they describe His life with the accuracy of an eyewitness.
I agree with "forgive_me_lord"...religion doesn't make sense, but when we begin to seek by looking at facts and not religion... then we will find the truth.

innerdawg

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: whit-Dawg ]

I see...and respectfully disagree.
Which part do u disagree about my sweet?

But I will say this about forgivenss...you're halfway right. Some people are forgiven by God long before they forgive themselves...like me for instance.
This is what I don't understand? How can God forgive someone, this is making him sound like a physical entity, which he can't be? Can he? I see him/it as more of a fictional Christian aparition that a disciple strives to please throughout their lives-Just like having an imaginary friend for instance, my sister had an imaginary friend called Tom, who she made cups of tea for and biscuits etc (he never ate them though) she worshipped him in a way, does that make sense?

But I do wanna touch on one issue here. Religion, this is not. I won't say that I don't believe in organized religion, because I do support certain churches...but not any certain denomination...and I most certainly would not put religion above God. God is not about religion. The Old Testament was rules...the New Testament tells us about grace, and it tells us that there is only one line drawn clearly in the sand, and you are on one side or the other. It doesn't say anything about baptists being on one side and methodists on another and pentacostals in the middle and suchnsuch somewhere over there on the side.

Religious and doctrinal arguements are a waste of precious time here as you can see if you look around that we have but one topic on here where we have been debating back and forth on one particular issue (Once Saved Always Saved) for a year and none of us has gotten ugly with each other yet...

The rest of our discussions are mainly about relationships which has completely replaced the religion when it comes to my priorities (as well as the that of most of the people here on this site).

So if you came here expecting religious arguements, then you'll probably be a little disappointed...but if you enjoy good discussions and debates back and forth, questions, fellowship and fun, then you might just like it here.

None of us will claim to have all the answers...we are all searching. But keep in mind that if you think someone is speaking in riddles to you, they probably aren't...they probably feel that what they said is crystal clear...we all have different means of communicating.

You seem like an interesting sort of person...would you mind answering just a couple questions?
I am very interesting, although I wont tell you what colour my underwear is, not just yet

First of all, what about religion does make sense to you? {you did say that some of it made sense}. Care to ellaborate?
What makes sense to me is the sense of belonging, and love. The way beliefs can turn someone around and put them on the straight and narrow, a bit like a tight-rope walker, religion to me is their big long pole that stabilises them, stops them wobling about and losing courage, you know what I mean?
What I don't understand is some people's blatant regard for facts, some people who are true Christians that i talk to, convince me that Jesus came back from the dead (impossible, rigormortis would of set in in a couple of hours, he would of stank like a kipper and had to of been wheeled around on an old fashioned skateboard thingy, with wheels made of stone of course, not polyurethane), and the whole Adam and Eve thing and evolution which gets blatantly disregarded. We never came from Adam and eve, does anyone here still think we do?
That's about it really, I am still finding my feet and looking for the way forwards at the moment, I enjoy your open mindedness so far and openess to question.
I look forwards to your replies.
All my Love, Mr Niceman

We don't belong to the same Church, as far as I know, i'm from Surrey. There was a newsletter that went around my church and someone mentioned this place, My birthday was my fault, I was so keen to get on the site I neglected to fill it in correctly, I am 26, 6ft2", Dark hair, Hazel eyes, and recently took a downward spiral in life, turning to excessive drinking and lack of moral fibre, ending up in a rather bizaare encounter with a member from the opposite sex (I think).
Do I sense scepticism in the tone of your html?
I feel good vibes eminating from you, isn't that weird? Do you have contacts in the UK?
Mr (Really)Niceman

We all seem to be talking about God and his existance but fail to mention the lesser God, The Devil. Is he a ficticious character or does he also exist, why when I pleasure my wife does she cry "Oh you Devil" and not "Oh God" like you see on the telly. Is she trying to tell me something?
Is it not a sin to call someone a Devil, even in the throws of a passionate embrace?
I am more confused by the minute, who knows the answers, should we know them ourselves?
I feel a bit of Ned Flanders coming on "Diddley Diddley" you get the idea.

Your truly confused.
Forgive me Lord.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by forgive_me_lord:
We all seem to be talking about God and his existance but fail to mention the lesser God, The Devil. Is he a ficticious character or does he also exist, why when I pleasure my wife does she cry "Oh you Devil" and not "Oh God" like you see on the telly. Is she trying to tell me something?
sin to call someone a Devil, even in the throws of a passionate embrace?
I am more confused by the minute, who knows the answers, should we know them ourselves?
I feel a bit of Ned Flanders coming on "Diddley Diddley" you get the idea.

Your truly confused.
Forgive me Lord

Where are you from Forgive me? You know Surrey at all?

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Mr Niceman ]

A little place in Scotland called Cardenden. I'm not sure where Surrey is though, is that near London?
More questions, this time you can answer huh!!
Nice talking to you.
<img src="graemlins/wavey.gif" border="0" alt="" />

OK, Forgive Me, I mean no disrespect and if I am being overly sensitive to your conversation, I apologize, but this is a Christian board and I do not feel that references to what occurs in the privacy of your marriage bed is something that should be shared here. I, for one, don't appreciate the tosh.

If you have such questions, I suggest that maybe you post them privately to another brother and not put it out for public display.

Having said that, to Mr Niceman, your response, if I am understanding your inferences correctly, was totally unnecessary, and a little offensive.

I'm not a prude, but I am a Christian woman who does not accept that type of posting on this type of board.

Hope you're getting the correct vibes from me this go around.

In forgive me's defense, it's a valid question...and I understand his point...

And if he will read my post above where I am trying to explain "God knocks", he will kindly see that I did mention satan.

About Mr. Niceman, not quite sure whether or not you meant what she thought you meant, so let's just make a rule: NO hitting on the women. (we hit back around here... LOL...)

You both brought up some really good points that I'd like to discuss later...would you all mind if we started a new thread for discussion for you two down in real life (since that's the discussin' place?) I don't mind doing that as soon as I get home...

No Michelle, I wasn't talking about what he said to me...that stuff can keep on comin

I was talking about his reply to Forgive me...I thought that was a bit much...

And you guys...If I was off base, I'm sorry, just not used to that type of post here.

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: embie ]

He he , whoops, sorry petal.
I am a cheeky chappy sometimes with a wicked sense of humour that gets the better of me sometimes, I realised that forgive me was a Brit and knowing what the British sense of humour is like, I make a cheap remark at his expense, I'm sorry.
So, here I sit again, In front of my laptop, banging away at lumps of plastic in a vain attempt to make sense of myself and the world around me.
Questions leap into my mind like a spring lamb around a field,
Theorys and ideas buzz around my head like electricity.
My mind craves information like a cat craves milk.
I ask you all;
Does the animal world have faith?
If God created the species, do animals have a conscience, are they aware of a higher being?
If Sunday is a Holy day, surely animals would amass in alleyways singing heartfully and sharing bread (or whatever they could lay their paws on)
Do they feel guilt?
Do they feel love?
Do they feel shame?
I know animals feel love, that means they have emotions and feelings.
So how can they willfully do a whoopsie in the street and not feel shame?

I dunno, I'll shutup now and retire to bed,

I look forwards to your enlightenment,

Mr NiceGuy (who is staring at his dog rightnow, hoping for a response)

OK..well, I'm laughing now, and I appreciate the response. Sorry if I got off on the wrong foot...

if your dog responds, I'd run...

heheh.. you guys are pretty funny.

I've seen embie post a pg-13 joke or 2 herself




Alas, it's us humans who were given free-will, the ability to make our own choices and decisions. What's the point of being higher than plant-life if we are nothing more than robots doing our master's bidding?

In the same manner, "where there is a design, there must be a designer". Scientists are finding out that the universe is just too complex for everything to be a coincidence. It takes a much bigger leap of faith to believe Darwin's theories of coincidence/evolution than to believe there was a purpose and reason behind everything created. Including you and I.

God did come to earth in a natural form. He walked among the people of His day eating, drinking, working, etc. in the form of Jesus Christ. He may have even said "pleased to meet you"

shush!

that comment coming from Mr Home Depot

ROFLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

That one was funny too...

Oh...I forgot to do this earlier...I'm gonna put a link to the discussion forum so that we can ask each other questions and answer each other's questions. click here....pretty please?

This thread I thought was about answering questions about God. If we are going to talk... let's talk.

Quoted:

What I don't understand is some people's blatant regard for facts...
We were discussing beliefs and got off on underwear and animals?

Before we can talk about what a CREATOR has created shouldn't we figure out the validity we feel towards the CREATOR?

innerdawg

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: whit-Dawg ]

We are talking...right HERE!!!

I just decided to move it since this is the Bible Study forum and Real Life is the discussion forum...I took some unanswered questions and started a new discussion...we'd love to have your input..and nobody said anything about underwear over there yet. But the animal discussion is always going to come up in an evolution vs creation, eternal spirit vs no afterlife, God no God discussion...just one of those things...

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: foreverchanged ]