Just ran across a scripture we might have a little discussion on, as I had never noticed it before, and wanted your interpretation on it too:



Here is a link to the whole chapter for reference:
click here

What is Jesus saying here? It sounds like He is saying that unless someone hears the Gospel (and therefore learns The Way), then he is not guilty of sin.

Anyways, discuss... lemme hear what you think. The chapter is a great one, BTW, in which Jesus affirms His love for us, His deity, how we will suffer for His name sake, but remember He suffered so much more...

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- Allen

I was soooooo looking for that yesterday. Whenever I am discussing with anyone about how a merciful God could send people to hell who have never heard the gospel, that always comes to mind. I hope that is what it is saying, because that is how I interpreted it.

Sorta like that passage in Matthew [I think] about how the master went away leaving one servant who knew the rules and one who didn't. They both broke the rules, but when the master returned, he punished the one who knew the rules more severely. I think I posted that passage in another thread...maybe in "would you rather" when I was talking to Erin Grace about the question: "Would you rather know you had a year left to live or die unexpectedly?" To whom much is given, much is also required. Are we only accountable for what we know?

There are some passages in Leviticus...I wish I had time to look them up right now, but I'm in the middle of something. They talk about how if you know the law and break it, you are unclean, but if you don't know the law and you break it, then you are sorta under a grace I guess you could say until you realize that you sinned. I will look it up later. Prolly tomorrow, because I can't remember the exact wording, but I interpreted that to be the jest of it.

As far as people dying without a chance to ever hear the gospel, I believe that there are a few rare occaisions where that may happen...but I am not sure. I do know that God is fair and just, and He does have the final say over when someone will die. Refer to Job. Satan couldn't touch Job until God gave him the okay. So I believe that God, being the just and merciful God that He is, gives people the opportunity to hear the gospel somehow before they die. Children who die before they are old enough to understand...I believe that they go to be with God. Same with mentally challenged people who don't have the capability of understanding everything. I think it's rather odd that I have seen SO many retarded people who--if asked--would fervently tell you without doubt that God exists. They can't argue theology. They don't know all the do's and don'ts...don't understand all of the "rules" But by golly, they know that God exists with that child-like faith that we all envy.

Does that make any sense?

We are born sinners, but the Bible says that children enter the kingdom of Heaven. So how is that possible if they die before asking Jesus into their heart?
I believe that it is because they are not accountable yet. So, possibly the same applies to people who have not yet had the opportunity to hear about God and sin...yes, they do sin, but they are still under that same grace...?


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Michelle

Found it!
Leviticus 4 from the beginning speaks of different ranks of people sinning unintentionally...starting with a preist, then a ruler...and it explains how the attonement should be made for the sins.
In v.27-28 it speaks of the common people:
If any one of the common people sins unintentionally by doing something against any of the commandmets of the Lord in anything which ought not be done and is guilty, or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge then he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats...

He is instructed to attone for his sin after he finds out that he has committed it. So does that mean that if the knowledge of his sin never comes to his attention, the lack of attonement does not count agaist him???

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Michelle

Now ya got me really thinking...my brain is gonna go through an overload.

I found this..maybe somebody could explain it:
Leviticus 5:17-19
If a person sins, and commits any of these things which are foridden to be done by the commandments of the Lord, though he does not know it, yet he is guilty and shall bear his inuiquity. And he shall bring to the priest a ram with out blemish from the flock, with your valuation as a trespass offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him rearding his ignorance in which he erred and did not know it, and it shall be forgiven him. It is a trespass offering. He has certainly trespassed against the Lord.



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Michelle

Well done grasshopper...

Old Testament : Law
New Testament : Grace



We really can't base our beliefs concerning grace on what the old testament says... there weren't any dispensations (?) of grace during that time, it was eye for an eye, blood for sin...

Romans is the best place to find your anwers in something like this:


chapter 6

Sorry about getting off on that tangent, but it does explain some..."where sin increased, grace increased all the more"... can that mean those who sin unknowingly, grace has increased all the more to them?


More food for thought:


It says right there that "whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

Does this mean everybody? Or does it mean those who have heard and rejected the idea of Jesus as savior?


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- Allen

Edit--- Hey Allen you replied before I got mine finished LOL! ('course I was holding a training class for an hour or so with the reply page open )


Hey Bro and Sis!

I think that we have two very similar, closely related issues but seperate.

I believe that Jesus was speaking strictly of the church, the pharisees. All through that passage he kept using the reference "They." Later on down in 16:2 he uses it in the context that "they" will put the disciples out of the church. The only "they" that had that kind of power was the pharisees. Also it doesn't appear to be a simple "sin" issue, not that any sin is simple. It seemed to be more of believing or not believing that Jesus was the prophesied "Mosioch ben Judah" the Messiah. Those pharisees had seen him and had been witness to many of the miracles, even many miracles that were never recorded. (The bible says in several places "that Jesus went about the land healing disease" without giving details. It appears as if these Pharisees were not part of the elect, as mantioned in the following.


I feel that since these pharisees actually witnesses of the Christ, that they had an opportunity like no one else in history and were held accountable in that measure.

In Leviticus it is more about sin in general. Remembering that Leviticus was all about the ins and outs of the "Law" that we are no longer under, there is a presumption of guilt.

(NIV "...sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, he is guilty.")
(KJV "...sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;")

It appears to be the requirements of what must be done in order to attone for their sin when they have either been told that they sinned or found out in any manner. Now of course we don't have to slaughter animals for our sin, a lamb was sacrificed for us a long time ago.

What of the person who does not hear the Gospel and dies. Albeit they are few and far between here in the USA, in other parts of the world there are multitudes. (China, India etc) All I know for an irrefutable fact is that our God is JUST, and wise. I am confident that He will judge them with Grace and mercy.

What age is someone accountable for their own sin? People have debated that for many years. I know in ancient rome it was OK for parents to murder their children up until they were 13, because they did not become citizens until that age. (I would not have made it LOL) In Jewish culture I beleive that male children pass into "accountablity" at their bar-mitzva around 15 years old. It is one of those things that the bible is decidedly silent on. I think that is so that God may use His mercy as He will and Judge children according to their own lives and exposure to His Word and His Son!

To sum it up as I believe....

Jesus said the pharisees would be judged harshly because they had the Truth walking among them.

Sin is still sin but when we find out, repentance is called for or unrepentance is another sin tacked on..

Children get a free ride until they are exposed enough to make a mature choice for Christ. (Key word children)


God bless you,
Your turn
Steve

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<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">This message has been edited by SLattier on 03-19-2001 at 01:36 AM</font>

Yes, good news... that has always been a stumbling block to me as well... anytime someone questions your faith, they will use that question somewhere in the first 3 questions... "How can a so-called loving God send all those people to hell who have never even heard of Him?" blah blah blah.... I have never had an answer for them... I tended to lean to the more hard-line approach if anything...

Luke 12 has a lot of good info on this, from Jesus Himself, He is speaking of a master who leaves a servant in charge of the other servants:


Sounds to me He is just, and this justice includes mercy and grace...


And forever, here's a word of encouragement too:


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- Allen

I was thinking about that as I was trying to fall asleep...about it saying in Romans that we are...oh, lemmie find it.

Romans 6:14 For sinshall not have dominion over you,for you are not under law but under grace.

And then this one came to mind:
Romans 8:3&4 For what the LAW could not do int that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He conndemned sin in the flesh that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the fles but according to the Spirit.



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Michelle

right... those who know ar required much more of than those who don't. We must be like Paul says, live as tho we are under the law, understanding that we are still under grace, so that we might win all the more to Him.


Some of my favorite scriptures in the Bible... Paul sets a mighty high standard to aspire to, for sure...


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- Allen

Amen to that. And also, we are responsible for making sure that people do not go without hearing the truth:

Romans 10:13&14
[/b]

We know...and it is our job to make sure that we tell as many people as possible. Which brings me to a question: If we know that someone has never heard, and we have the opportunity to witness to them but do not, are we, in part accountable if they die without ever hearing? I have always wondered that. I know that somewhere it says that we are accountable for the words that we say when we are in the position to teach others about the gospel. So are we accountable for the words that we don't say?



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Michelle

Yep, well at least according to our abilities and gifts. Brings it right back to that story of the master who gave out the measures of talents, one grew his greatly, one a little and one burried his. The master only got angry at the one who burried his talent.



God bless!
Steve


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So if you don't have a "gift" or "tallent" for sharing your faith with others...what then?

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Michelle

We all have some gift that can be used to forward the kingdom on earth. I know some guys that are great landscapers. They have donated time and energy to sprucing up the church, etc. There are choirs, bands, janitors, ushers, home visitors, cooks, and on and on.

Ps I have seen your witnessing (in type) and you have nothing to be ashamed of. I think that you express Gods love as well as any. That is the neat thing, showing people Jesus does not require a degree from college!


God bless ya

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Oh yeah... definitely...

We all have that measure of faith/ talent/ etc... that is needed. We won't all be Billy Graham, and that's a good thing, Rev. Graham doesn't relate to the people you, I, we come into contact with everyday... Those are the people we are to reach for Christ, for real. Just as the shepherd would leave the flock to go after the one lost sheep, that is Jesus' expectation of us too. The million souls Rev Graham has won to Christ is not anymore important that the one we reach in our class, workplace, email, grocery store, gym, etc...

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- Allen

<IMG SRC="http://stand318.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif" border=0>Hmmmm...possibly goes back to "God is not looking for your ability...He's looking for your availability..." Fair enough.

So yeah, okay...while we're still halfway on the subject of grace/accountability, this scripture has always bothered me because I don't quite understand what it is saying. Maybe one of you guys could help me with it. (Wishing that more people would get involved...this is turning out to be one of my favorite threads this month...)
Hebrews 10:26-28

The first few times I read it I went Cause I know that I've sinned willfully since I knew the truth...??? What is this saying?
So I decided to check out the little notes beside it and see where they led me...

One of them was to Hebrews 6:4-6
Again...I'm not quite understanding what this means...I know that we are accountable for what we know, but I also know that we aren't ever gonna be perfect. To me, these verses seem to say that if you mess up you have had it! I know that's not what they are actually saying; leave it to me to interpret them that way...can anybody tell me what they are actually getting at?




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Michelle

Yes, leave it to you...

This is probably one of those times it would be good to look at the original Hebrew/Greek it was rwitten in and translate it. The NIV gives a little different translation, which might help here:


It says in the first sentence "keep on sinning", which to me means a little different than just "if we sin ever again"...

Anyways, I don't have my Bible here with me, or I am sure I could pull some background out that would help to make more sense out of this... This is the same writer who wrote to the Romans preaching grace, grace, grace... and is writing to the Hebrews here law, law, law... which meant a whole lot of difference at that period in time. Paul knew how to reach down where the readers were and get to them on their level. A chapter in Romans says virtually the same thing, Paul talks about how he becomes like the Romans when he needs to be and Jewish when he needs to be...

For extremely interesting background into each book of the Bible - its timetable in history, the general themes, the background of the writer, the significance of what its trying to say, etc... you may want to check out the PromiseKeeper's Bible, an NIV translation with lots of really great stuff to go along with it.. mine is at home.

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- Allen

That ma,kes a little more sense. Than,ks... grrrr...darn k,eyboard!!!!

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Michelle

Oh yea....what is that first comment supposed to mean????

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Michelle

Hi Forever I dunno what he is talking about and I don't think I am goignto get anywhere near it either!

I agree it is definitly speaking about continuing in a sin "lifestyle" Look again at verse 29...
There is no way you could consider slipping in your walk on occasion, to a "trampling" of Christ!


God bless!
Steve


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Hey there gang...

I was thinking, on the way in to work, that passage is bent even more toward the unbeliever than it is towards those who have been converted.



The way that verse 26 is written implies that a person hears the word of truth and willingly rejects it for a life of sin as opposed to acceptance of Christs sacrifice.



Only a person who has rejected Christ as their savior, knowing and willingly, could ever be considered an enemy of God. That brings us back to the first verse we discussed and ties it all together.




That fits together like the peices of a puzzle!!

(ps I have enjoyed this thread as well!)

God bless ya!
Steve



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When God is all you've got; God is all you need!

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