Here is another deep one. Are we predestined or does man kind have free will? Please give Biblical answers, not what you heard some preacher say that he heard some preacher say that he... yada yada. I want to hear what you guys believe the Bible says.

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Until He Returns, I remain... About souls,
crucified_with_christ

Jer. 29:11
"'For I know the plans I have for you,' declares the Lord..."

How much plainer can it get.


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"...It's all about you, all about you Jesus..."

so you believe that we are predestined? I guess it wasn't plain enough for me. Didn't completely understand your reply. Please clarify.

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Until He Returns, I remain... About souls,
crucified_with_christ

Jesus was talking to the Israelites in that verse. He also states in the previous verse that He is bringing them back to Babylon, I don't think He meant us (now, today) in verse 11 as well.

I am positive that we have free will, it is what makes us different from the angels. It is what God was looking for when He made us, interaction, free will worship. Non-free-will animals worship Him because they were made to do so.

The original sin in Genesis is the best example of free will. God did not make Adam and Eve for them to sin, that was their choice.

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- David
- http://www.truckwerks.com/

I want to preface this scripture w/ I believe that man is a free will being, but I also want people to think the Word through. The Bible says whosoever will... and that settled it for me. Here is one of those brain teasers though...
"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" Eph.1:11
I am astounded at how many Christians that love God and even read their Bibles... know what they believe, but don't know how to support it. They believe it because that is what their parents believe or their pastors believe... I challenge everyone out their to be fully persuaded in whatever you believe. Learn for yourself. CHOOSE TO DISCOVER GOD! He wants to reveal himself to you. Part of faith is believing that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Hebrews 11:6 Love God, Love People!


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Until He Returns, I remain... About souls,
crucified_with_christ

Sorry, was posting on the fly by and didn't get to clarify. Yes, I believe we are predestined....but at the same time, we have a free will. I think God has like plan A-Z for our lives according to what choices we make. But ultimately there is a perfect will he has for us. In it all, though, He is in control. And David, if he knew the plans he had for Israel, don't you thing he knows the plans he has for us?


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"...It's all about you, all about you Jesus..."

Exactly... there are scriptures that support both sides of this discussion. I will look some of them up as we work on this together. Logic says tho that we are free-will beings. God knows what we are gonna choose, but it is still our choice. Do we accept Him and His plan for salvation, or do we buy that one-way ticket to the only place hotter than Enron field on a summer night?
Without free-will we are nothing more than trained monkeys.


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Allen

Yes... I believe He had plans for Israel, but each person in Israel had to decide if they were gonna be a part of those plans. Kinda a "either you a re part of the answer, or part of the problem" type thing.

God definitely has the power to do whatever He chooses in our lives... but where is the fun in that? He designed us to choose to worship Him, or choose not to. Our choosing to accept His salvation (as Allen speaks about) is what causes the angels to rejoice in heaven, cuz we coulda chosen different.

Sure, He has great plans for us, I know He does for me, and for Stand318 as well... but it only takes one bad decision by us to ruin those plans.

Take the big-time preacher who has a life story to tell of how he used to be a burglar, rapist, theif, drug-dealer - and how God saved him from all that. It wasn't part of God's plan for that guy for him to kill someone so he would have a good story to tell once he got saved... it was in His plans for the guy to be a preacher, but the guy chose to be a bad guy first before he became a preacher.

This discussion is getting to be good thought-provoking stuff, keep it up. Help me to see it differently...

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- David
- http://www.truckwerks.com/

The answer to your discussion is yes. Yes God has a destination or plan for us and yes He gave us a free will. We see both examples throughout the bible.

Adam and Eve...to easy
Abram (concerning his anxiousness to have the child God told him he would.)
Moses leading the Isrealites...the Isrealites not crossing over into the glory God had given them.
Jonah and the whale...Dramatic yet straight to the point.
David...shepherd to king yet sinned and "chose wrong paths" by his own free will constantly.

Jesus's calling of each disciple...Their accepting... His teachings...their beliefs in that of which He taught...

Mary CHOSE to be unclean (a prostitute) yet God had already called her to be the truest form of praise ever recorded in the bible.

A persons Faith...need I say more...

Beggars being healed and blind men seeing...Christ asked the crippled if he wanted to be healed...weird question...or is it?

Peter...one of the greatest men in the bible...denied Christ 3 times by his free will...He was walking on water...then sinking (due to his will)...running around cutting off ears and questionning Christ...I'm pretty sure God wasn't "making him do that," however I do think he knew that he would.

Christ asks in the Garden when He is praying and scared --not MY will but YOURS be done Father.

I believe that our spiritual life is a lot like our physical life. Their are things that we are no matter what and then there are some things we do to ourselves or chose for ourselves. No matter what I was born...I can't really change that. But I chose to be happy about it or not. My free will gives me choices everyday. That's why God lets us go through some of the stuff we go through...not becsuse it will make us tougher physically but because it makes us (or our FREE WILL) grow spiritually.

My picture is of a father teaching a child to ride a bike. At first he holds on to the bike real tight. Now we can at any time (if we so choose) jerk the handlebars and cause ourselves to fall, but He is there just as He always was to pick us up and point us (not out into traffic) in the right direction.

Now as we get stronger or more confident, He takes His grip off of us (Keeping His hands on either side of us) in order to grow in our own identity. Never letting us out of His reach but giving us enough room to move back and fourth. How much would we grow if He pushed our right foot down while holding up the bike then our left...and so on and so on...Not much.
He wants us to Choose to grow and Choose the right combination to succeed. But what makes Him awesome is that while He gives us our FREE WILL He protects us with HIS GRACE. Why? Because He knows Why He made us. He's got the Predestined plans and He already knows the ending.

I guess I look at it as this...I don't worry anymore about wondering if I was made to ride the bike or if God is letting me ride it because I can...I just concentrate on riding it the BEST I CAN while I am on it because for whatever reason God thinks that it will help me in the end. Is it me or Him--who cares when He and I are one. Was I made for better things than I am in right now--OF COURSE. Did I make that plan? No. I heard someone say one day: The only two truths I know are-- there is a God...And I am not Him. He has a plan I just choose to make it more difficult.

And if I fall off or choose the wrong path I don't beat myself up too long I just look to DAD, accept His grace, try not to make the same mistake, and go again.

Eventually we all can ride wheelies if we practice, try hard enough, loosen up a bit and be relaxed, have fun, don't give up and most importantly don't forget what it is you are trying to do.

innerdawg


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John 15:16 -
You didn't choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name.
...What is this scripture talking about? Possibly that we didn't choose Him...He chose us and appointed us at the same time?

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Until He Returns, I remain... About souls,
crucified_with_christ

<FONT COLOR="#ffffff" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by crucified_with_christ on 05-17-2000 @ ]</font>

hmmm... in this scripture Jesus is talking to His disciples at "The Last Supper". Jesus did choose His disciples, they didn't choose Him. Do you think maybe this "choosing" has to do with Him "calling" His ministers? Part of that "many are called, few are chosen" stuff...

I still think He may choose us, but we have to consciously accept being chosen. We can easily mess up our calling, I think. I think it kinda goes with He has a will for something, and He will use someone to accomplish this, another part of that "lead, follow, or get out of the way"...

Good stuff to think on this weekend...

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Allen

I believe that when you are called into ministry, it is a call to come--not go. It is a call to come and sit and be equipped by the five-fold ministry. After you're proven as Paul wrote in the book of Phillipians among many others that Timothy's character was proven...then you'll be chosen. Thus the many are called, few are chosen. God chooses men of character.

The Bible is clear in what it says on all subjects, including free will and predestination, but we must understand what the Bible says. "In all your getting, get understanding." This is why the apostle Paul told Timothy "study to show thyself approved."

Understand the old testament and new testament are built on two covenants--the old and the new. The words covenant and testament are interchangeable. A covenant between God and Abraham and a Covenant betweem God and Jesus (our sacrificial substitute-- we become in Christ upon being born again. Ex. Gal. 2:20 For I am crucified w/ Christ..., Buried w/ Christ, Raised w/ Christ, etc.) So we see that the Covenant w/ God and Jesus is actually a covenant w/ God and any Believer in Christ. A covenant is an agreement(for lack of better word, actually much stronger than an agreement) entered into by two parties. Both parties have to be willing to enter the covenant--free will.

The old testament is filled w/ shadows of the coming new and better covenant as well as the messiah who who would bring this covenant into fruition. In Leviticus, God told Moses that the sacrifices would be free will offerings unto God but yet at the same time they were required for atonement of sins. This doesn't contradict itself, it is similar to salvation in that we must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven but if we sin we must confess them and He is faithful and just to forgive. Kind of like faith without works is dead.

To make it clear, man is a free-will being.

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Until He Returns, I remain... About souls,
crucified_with_christ

Yes! I thought we agreed on this... man is a free-will being...

OK, now that we agree , how do we explain the John 15:16 verse? Was Jesus really only talking about how He had chosen His disicples and not talking about how He has chosen our paths for us?

Good discussion cruce... thank you..


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Allen

John 15:16 is one of the most understood verses in the Bible. It has NOTHING to do with predestination, although many think it does.
We must be careful never to box a scripture and say we totally understand it. Our Father has chosen the foolish things to confound the wise.
What Jesus was speaking of in John 15 is love. No greater love...etc., WOW! So to answer the question of what He is talking about by saying you didn't choose me--I chose you, I'll cross-refernce to I John 4:10. It says "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."
On the same note, you are correct in that He was talking w/ His disciples telling them they didn't choose Him, He chose them. But in a much broader scope He is speaking that He chose to love us before we even had a chance to love Him. He chose to die for us before we could even realize we were sinners. Before the foundations of the world Jesus was crucified. In Romans, Ch. 5 and verse 8 it says that "But God demonstrated His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." So does that mean God has predestined some and not others-- ABSOLUTELY NOT! He is not willing that any should perish is what the scriptures teach. So it boils down to
Whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved! Man has the choice. Accept or deny. Choose you this day who you will serve!

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Until He Returns, I remain... About souls,
crucified_with_christ

Yes!! Very good... I am with ya now...

choose you this day, whom you will serve...

He is not willing that any should perish...


Very good... if anyone has more to add.. I am all fingers...


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Allen