We always miss out on the inside jokes..... dense? dents? wha?

Spill the beans about this pre-destination stuff and some more on your OSAS beliefs. I pointed a friend to this thread last night, but he hasn't posted yet

While I am away, I won't have my laptop with me...part of my plan to just pray and focus on God's Will for my life. When I come home, I promise to post my beliefs on the subject. But please remember, this is only an offering of my understanding of what I read and have studied, and not meant to try to sway anyone from their own.

For now, here's a little analogy that I like to use regarding predestination.

I think of it as a sporting event. God is the captain of a team. There are a group of potential players. God chooses certain people that He wants to be on His team. He picks that one and that one and that one over there. Those are the elect. When He has finished choosing those that He desires, He leaves the rest to split up and choose what side they wish to be on. That's where the free will comes in. He wants us all to be on His team, but He leaves that up to us. Those that He has chosen will not stray from His side. They will play hard and fight the good fight and though they may get set back now and again, they have heart and they will not be defeated. They were Chosen for their stamina and fortitude and to fulfill a Divine Purpose. So when someone is saved and for whatever reason, seem to stray, fall into sin, but repent and get right with God, they strengthen that relationship even more. They have grown, been changed, and are more in tune with His will for their lives. We all have the ability to sin and we do...we all have a license to do as we please. What shows our salvation is our heart condition. We sin, but do not desire the sin. Paul's passage where He talks of doing what he knew he ought not to do and not doing what he should... Paul called himself the chief sinner, yet his writings are a majority of the NT. He was surely a chosen man of God. God knew his heart. He knows our hearts. He won't let His chosen slip.

OK..so those are just a few thoughts of mine...

I have lots of stuff to share on OSAS and some new encounters I have just had with some friends from AOG. I will write them all up for next week. For now, I'm going to scoot and get on the road. Please pray for my trip and for clarity of mind that I might hear God's voice and know His will in my life. I want to start out this year right before Him.

"See" ya'll Friday.

Have a great trip and get some peaceful rest while you're at it.

I do have a little problem with the "chosen" aspect of the above... It seems we are all equal in His eyes, then how are some of us "chosen"? Who is chosen and is it obvious? It can be easy to say "such and such preacher is a chosen one" and then watch them fall flat on their face carousing with a prostitute... Yes, they may get back up, but doesn't that show their humanness as much or more than their choseness? Billy Graham may have led millions to Christ and could probably be considered "chosen", but what about the person who led Billy Graham's family to Christ, were they "chosen" too, or just a "minor Christian celebrity"?

Don't we "choose" ourselves in this? Surely those chosen have the free will to unchoose themselves. It would seem Judas Iscariot would have fallen into this category.

I hadn't considered this before, so don't take it as divisive, but please explain some more... I have time

Thanks Allen, that was my exact thought too! Who is choosen and why?

btw is "unchosen" a word??

aleina

It is if you can type it

Darn it you got me thinking again!!! LOL

I did quick word study tonight on "elect" I found some very interseting verses

Matthew 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

*Tribulation, the elect will be present during it

Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.

*Didn't Jesus know if it was possible? kinda ambiguous

Matthew 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

*That deflates the argument that the "elect" were all Israelites

Romans 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, [8] as it is written:

"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."*

[9] And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. [10] May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,and their backs be bent forever."*

*That explains the state of Israel today...

2Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

*"May" obtain???

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness--

*Faith? Faith can be lost......

1Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, [2] who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

*Chosen for obediance? Doesn't that imply that there can be DISobediance? It doesn't say chosen to be an automaton....


"Elect" Greek- "Eklegomai" Verb = (the most inrteresting definition) "of God the Father choosing Christians, as those whom he set apart from the irreligious multitude as dear unto himself, and whom he has rendered, through faith in Christ, citizens in the Messianic kingdom."


It sounds to me like He has chosen any who will hear and obey to be His elect. (those that will inherit the Kingdom) These are irregardless of race or country of origin.

You know, I'm not sure I have all the answers to those questions, as I do still have my OWN questions.

I know that God doesn't love anyone more or better, but He does bless some more than others. And in the bible, it is clear and is written that He found "favor" with some above others. Why? He chose Mary to be the mother of Christ as He found "favor" with her. What made her "special"? I used to think that we were all in the Lamb's Book of Life from the creation of the world. That we were only blotted out when we "chose" not to follow Christ. But then I was reading in Revelations and I read this scripture:
Rev 17:8

8The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

"From the Foundation of the World". So if we are ALL Chosen, then wouldn't ALL of our names be in that Book, except those that fell away? But here it says that those that worship the beast were NOT in "from the foundation of the world". Or am I reading it improperly? Were they there and are now removed?

PAGING STEVE

But what I do stand by is those that would be "chosen" (at least iaccording to my own understanding) are not released from their requirement of acceptance of Christ as their Lord and Savior. They are still bound by grace through faith.

I have to go back and reread your questions again and also Steve's post, which I just skimmed cos I was in a hurry to ask my OWN questions.

I had an awesome time with God these last two days, but in all of my reading, I came up with LOTS more questions.

One thing I am sure of tho is that He has soo much more in store for me this year..I just can't wait to get into it

Sounds like a great week embie... I envy that part

I have some of the same questions... post them when you find some answers

We just so happened to discuss this a bit indirectly tonight in a discipleship class based on the book of Ephesians.

Tho my pastor believes OSAS (interesting for someone coming out of a Methodist church into a non-denominational). We discussed the flip-side of pre-destination, in that if God has pre-destined some to go to heaven, then He must have pre-destined others to go to hell (chosen vs. unchosen). But it's clear God desires that "none should perish". This would seem to tilt the scales toward free-will and choice... that His "will" is more "desire" than "law".

Anyways, we just started the class tonight, I'll post more as we get deeper into the discussion.

I don't know if the thought came up in here, because frankly you all write a whole lot .

Okay, when you're saved, your sins are forgiven past, present, and future. Turning away from God would be a sin, would it not? Wouldn't that sin be forgiven? Or do you have to ask?

This is my belief...(I think -- every time I talk about this subject I realize something I didn't before or talk myself into a corner...so what I start out believing when I post is not necessarily what I believe when I am through. )

I am coming to realize that God really does what He says He does. Once He forgives, he really does forget. He is all knowing, but he purposefully erases that sin from His memory when you come to him with true repentance. So to be saved, you must accept the gift of salvation...and to be forgiven, you must repent and ask for His forgivness.

I really don't believe that He makes you repent for all of your sins by name in order for you to get to heaven. If so, none of us would make it. What we repent for is the mindset that caused us to sin...and those sins that we do remember, I believe we are responsible for repenting of. It's a heart condition. He can see when you have a repentant heart.

I do believe that once you have accepted salvation, you can reject it. And if you have rejected salvation, you will not have a repentant heart. Then I believe you have forfieted your salvation. The great thing is that He will take you back. He made us...He knew we would be wishy washy.

Look at the Israelites...they saw direct evidence of Him. They even begged that God not come any closer lest they all die because they were not pure enough...and yet as soon as they thought God's back was turned, they forgot about Him and started worshipping idols and sinning again...His own chosen people. And yet He still sent his son to die for them...and for us.

Yes, his forgivness is EXTENDED to us for our past present and future sins. Our part of the responsibility is to accept it.

A relationship does not happen overnight, and nor does it last if you start one with someone and never spend time with them.

I am beginning to learn that as long as my heart stays repentant, I am forgiven of my sins as I commit them. I'm not saying that it's okay to keep doing it...but it's not damnation that I should be concerned with.

Try to follow me here, cause I'm going in a really wide circle here, but it really does all tie in together.

I am saved. I know that. I have accepted Jesus as my savior. I strive to be perfect, and yet I know I can't. So why do it if I know I can't? Because I'm afraid that if I sin and don't have time to repent before I die I will burn in hell? No...it is so that I will be able to have a closer relationship with God.

God is a holy God. He hates sin. If I am living in sin, I will still have his love, but I He will not bring His presence close to me. He will bring His conviction...and that is through love, but it hurts nonetheless.

If I am striving to be pure, He will meet me halfway...

The Bible says that if you draw near to God, he will draw near to you.

I used to get frustrated because I would sit there and beg for God to come near to me...just sit there and beg. Okay, God...I'm ready for you to draw near to me...I am reaching for you...so where are you??? Because when I first began my relationship with him, it seemed that His presence was EVERYWHERE. Did He pull away? Why? And why did He feel so close when I first got saved and still had all the evidence of sin all over my natural man?

Because He had just freshly cleaned my spririt man...and I was in a constant state of repentance and the longing to be pure...not so I would be good enough, but so that I could be closer to Him.

Over time, my focus has shifted from Him to me. If I am good enough, if I am pure enough...then I won't feel guilty and I might be worthy of being used by Him.

But that's not what it's about. It's about Him. If I am striving for purity, then I can be closer to Him. He understands that I will fall and fail. But as long as I reach for His hand and understand that I failed because I am not Him and that only by His grace am I able to get up and dust myself off and keep going, then He will help me up. It's when I try to get up on my own that He lets me keep falling...It's when I try to build my tower of perfection up so that I might climb closer to Him that he pulls away...and it's when I realize that it's not my works but His grace that allows me to be close to Him, that He would dare work through me to bring glory to His name that He will do just that.

So it's not about rules and fine lines. It's not about trying not to screw up or He will hit you with a stick. It's about staying in a state of repentance, and humblness, understanding that (in the words of Steven Curtis Chapman), "God is God and I am not"...and I will screw up not because I want to or because I'm worthless and stupid but because I am human and fallable and I NEED Him. It's about thinking less and less of yourself and thinking more and more of Him.

And as long as you realize that, you don't have to worry about am I saved? Did I just fall out of grace because I thought that dirty thought? Did I just sentance myself to eternal damnation because I blew my sobriety? Will God forgive me again because I can't seem to beat this addiction?

As I said in the other thread -- if you're still with me, Ashley -- we're in good company...cause even Paul said "the things I do I don't wanna do and the things I wanna do I don't". So we aren't the only ones who keep messing up. As long as we realize that His grace is sufficient for all our screw ups, we are okay.

But yes...I do believe that if we reject that grace we are no longer under it's covering...

Did any of that make any sense???

Umm two words:

1. Wow!
2. Amen!

the thread that will not die

Just a few verses I ran across this am in service:

John 15:4-6
Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
==================================

It seems that there is a pruning process and we who have not remained in Him whither and are/can be pruned away... first, it must be assumed that we were in Him at one point, grafted in to eternal life, but that there is a possibility that we can also be pruned away, picked up, and thrown into the fire...

anyways, just sharing what I read

I've never agrued anyone to Christ

I'll have a couple for ya soon...

Not much of a debate anymore...is it? Nobody's arguing!

I have one for ya:

I Peter 7-9
...that the genuiness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishess, though it is tested by fire, may be found t praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory. receiving the end of your faith -- the salvation of your souls.

So...salvation is the end result of your faith, and thus inferring that it's a process?

Well, I don't pretend to know all the answers, but this is one that deserves a great deal of consideration. If I'm wrong about it, well, then, I will stand accountable. I don't live my life in contradiction to God's Word, testing my beliefs in OSAS, but I believe that for the lost, they need to know that the Lord loves them and desires to keep them forever with Him in Heaven. For the saved, that they understand the fullness of that love and that they cannot out-sin the grace that is bestowed on us. Salvation is a gift of grace given in love to those who believe. We didn't and couldn't do anything to earn it. Christ only had to die once for our sins...past present and future sins.

JOHN 10:28, 29 (ASV)Jesus said "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." NIV

PHILIPPIANS 1:6 “Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;”

JOHN 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Basics, but they work for me...

I Cor 15:1&2
Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Matthew 24:12-14
Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Luke 8:11-13
"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Revelation 3:15-19
I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, `I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.

Here he is referring to the church! People who are/were saved, but He is about to spew them out of His mouth!

You are right...as the scripture has said...no one can snatch us out of His hand, but He can set us down when our hearts don't reflect repentance, and when we choose no longer to believe in what we once believed. I agree that people both lost and saved need to be taught that they can't outrun God's grace, and that since they didn't obtain their salvation through works, they can't lose it by sin either...but they can forfiet their salvation when the choose to a) no longer believe, b) no longer obey and thus becoming hard-hearted and unrepentant c) decide we no longer want what God has to offer for whatever reason ie feelings of unworthiness or illigitimacy (can't accept His grace because we can't accept ourselves), or because we refuse to forgive others (for the Word says that if we forgive, then we may be forgiven, but if we do not forgive, then we will not be forgiven...so iin other words, "c" is not being willing to accept God's terms once things get rocky.

People have to know that they can give up their salvation, or else things like this happen:

Luke 13:6-9
Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, `For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?' "`Sir,' the man replied, `leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.'"

We get plenty of extra chances to repent and bear fruit, but if we just don't do it, we will be cut off...cut down.

And this:

Luke 13:24-27
Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, `Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, `I don't know you or where you come from.' "Then you will say, `We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
"But he will reply, `I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

People who are either hypocrites, or those who really think they are saved because of they truely were once saved.

The main problem I have with OSAS is that it says if you ever fall away, you weren't truely saved in the first place...that, for me, causes doubt. Am I really saved? How do I know for sure? They thought they were saved, and now look at them. They either hate God or don't believe in Him at all, and their behavior reflects their heart. But they knew at one time they were saved...so how do I really know?

To me, that's worse than thinking...yeah, I am saved now, but what if I screw up really big? If it's possible to lose my salvation, then I could goof up and lose it!! That can be easily rebutted by scripture...but the only comfort you can give to the above case is that as long as they are repentant and believe then they are saved through grace...but you can't ever really tell them that they know for sure if you also tell them that those who fall away were never with us...

Just my thougths on the matter...

ok, we've found bajillions of verses that can support both sides - we agree that there isn't a definitive answer... tho I like mine better

well, guess we're doing the "double-blind" test

If we couldn't lose our salvation, why would satan constantly attack us?