Who among us doesn't have the desire to sin, and for the most part do it on a regular basis? As I heard someone state in our men's Bible-study earlier tonight - "Do I struggle with lust? No, I enjoy every minute of it". Sad, but very true for a lot of Christians. If it's not lust, it's just as easily gluttony, envy, lies, etc.... Paul, perhaps the "strongest" Christian, so ably stated: "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do."



Romans chapter 7-8 really digs into this, please read the whole thing to get the gist of what paul was saying, but here is a verse that may give thought for discussion:

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Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
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That seems pretty clear-cut. Living "according to the sinful nature" (as you said you were by your thoughts and actions) had a price to pay. Re-accepting Christ as you most certainly have paid that price.

A friend and I were talking...and this is what he said...I thought it was very good...

"I asked some friends recently which of my phones was most valuable; a Nokia 5110 or a Nokia 7110. They knew that a 7110 has more value. The question was 'why?'. I showed them a Palm device. 'Is this valuable' I asked. They confirmed that it was. Again, why? Lot's of good answers came, mostly along the lines of what you can do with a thing makes it valuable. So I showed my Palm device to a particularly technophobic lady and asked "What value do you place on this?". "None" she replied. And so I posed the question to my friends, "This lady could do the same as I could with this device - but she doesn't value it - why?"
And then I posed the question - "What makes gold valuable?" At last they began to see where I was going.. But the best they could come up with was "because we say it's valuable". Of course, that's a very sensible answer...

My conclusion in the end was this, the value of a thing depends entirely on the desire of a person to possess it. Gold is valuable because we desire it.. My Palm is valuable to me because I desire it.. To my technophobic friend, my Palm has no value because she does not desire it.

And in the same manner as gold, I summarized, I have no value, except this, that the most important person in the universe desires so much to possess me that He sent His only son... Not for what I can do, or what He can do with me, but simply because He wants me. And that is a mystery I will never understand."

How much happier we would be if we would recognize that our own value lies in the desire of God, and not in our own efforts...

Preach preacha preach!

ummmm... did we change subjects?

There's only one thing we have to do to gain salvation, accept it. You can still return gifts as well, or "boxing day" wouldn't be so popular

Dang...and I thought boxing day was for Kangaroos...


sorry...back to topic...

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: embie ]

No it's for kids who can't get along and fight all day over the presents

I had to say that LOL BACK ON TOPIC NOW!

aleina

So embie...if I were to have died when I was in the middle of cursing God, I would have gone to heaven??? Because I was like that for a good 6 years of my life...what's the time limit?

OSAS says that if we really do turn our back on God, that meant we never were with Him in the first place, so we know that it's not true that I was never with Him in the first place, because I know I was.

So I was truely saved, turned my back on Him and yet I was still covered under the gift of salvation while I was wallowing in the sin, right? That's how it would apply to my life. I had no conviction, no repentance...no wish to do the right thing...

I believe that God pursued me the whole time and looking back I can see where He gave me ample opportunities to turn back to Him, but I didn't for years... So what if I was still doing my own thing now? And tomorrow...and ten years from now? What if I wouldn't have repented? He can convict me as many times as He chooses, but He has no control over whether or not I repent...He's not intrusive or pushy. He won't force me to do it...so what if I were still turned away from him twenty years from now, and I died. I would go to heaven because I sincerely asked Christ to come into my life and wash my sins away and truely lived the life for a few years but then turned away and never thought twice about Him?

True...I'm not still in my old lifestyle, but only because I finally broke down and asked Him to come in and clean me again. What if I wouldn't have?

What of the story of the bridesmaids who fell asleep and let the lamps run out of oil (or something) and they ended up missing the wedding...they recieved the invitation, accepted the invitation, and even made preparations. But they faltered and fell asleep instead of standing vigilant and keeping the fire burning, they let it die.

Faith without works is dead.

[James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.]

You must be alive before you can die.

We are saved through faith, [Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith...] so if our faith at one time were alive, then we were saved.

So if we don't follow faith up with works of obedience, then faith will die.

And without faith it is impossible to please Him... [Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.]

So doesn't that mean that your faith can be alive at one time, but if you do not keep the lamp full of oil or keep your Spirit full of God, then your lamp will burn out? Your faith will die? And if your faith dies.........

And if it doesn't mean that, then what does it mean?

Well...it leads to a totally whole different topic...one that is very passionately debated and that's Predestination or Election...

What do you believe in this regard?

Allen we can move this to another thread if you'd like...

I really gotta get to bed...

I think we are still on topic... let us have it...

I love this thread, a lot of thought has went into it.

I guess I don't have many thoughts on that subject, embie...I'm not really sure I've heard much of the issue, so I'm not quite sure how my question would tie into it...

My question really pertains to OSAS. How can OSAS be true in my life? What's the time limit that you have before you decide that I went away because I was never with Him or I was just backslidden? And if I die in that time, I'm saved according to OSAS, but then that really would give people the right to sin and not worry about consequences...because at that time in my life I had no concern with them whatsoever...but I know I was saved before then.

And I know I'm saved now...so my question is what about that one time frame where I wasn't? You say I was still saved...but what if I were still out in the world doing my own thing and I came to this site saying that I had been saved years ago but that I hated God now and that I wanted nothing to do with Him...?

Would you still say that I was saved? Because if you would have talked to me during that time, you would have known that I wasn't. And if you had said that I really was saved that would give me the right to just keep on doing what I was doing...because I'm allready saved, right? And to tell me that I was acting the way I was acting and that I wanted to sin because I wasn't saved when I was younger would have been untrue, because I know I was...so it's an endless cycle that I can't seem to make sense of.

PS You know I love you embie. And this is one of the best OSAS debates I've seen in a long time because nobody has to worry about getting their feelings hurt or their head bitten off. Kudos to everyone who has been part of this one...

Feelings mutual Michelle and I do have some thoughts for you, but I need some time to prepare them. Tonight I am not mentally equipped to put forth a "valiant effort". I am still really tired and want to make sense when I do post.

Predestination/election does pertain to your question, but for right now, I will leave that and just try to answer your current questions.

Can I ask, just as a reference point in my own mind, what denominational badges you all wear there? I am attending a Southern Baptist church right now, but attended an AOG while in DE. I pretty much call myself a Bible-believer and don't limit God where strict doctrine is concerned.. (kinda lets me off the hook, eh? ) ROFL!

No denominational badge here...I just believe God's word...

The biggest problem I have with OSAS and it is less of a "problem" than an unresolved question. How can OSAS be true if there are so many "IF's" in the Bible?


Genesis 4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

Exodus 15:26 He said, "If you listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you."

Exodus 19:5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, [6] you* will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.

Leviticus 18:28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

Leviticus 26:3 " `If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, [4] I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees of the field their fruit.

Deuteronomy 8:19 If you ever forget the LORD your God and follow other gods and worship and bow down to them, I testify against you today that you will surely be destroyed.

1Kings 3:14 And if you walk in my ways and obey my statutes and commands as David your father did, I will give you a long life."


1Chronicles 28:9 "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

Job 8:6 if you are pure and upright, even now he will rouse himself on your behalf and restore you to your rightful place.

Isaiah 1:15 When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood;

Isaiah 1:19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; [20] but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Jeremiah 7:5 If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, [6] if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, [7] then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your forefathers for ever and ever. [8] But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.

Malachi 2:2 [2] If you do not listen, and if you do not set your heart to honor my name," says the LORD Almighty, "I will send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have already cursed them, because you have not set your heart to honor me

Matthew 6:1 "Be careful not to do your `acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. [15] But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Matthew 21:21 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, `Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. [22] If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,* you will indeed die in your sins."

John 8:31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

John 15:7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. [8] This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

John 15:9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. [10] If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Roman 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, [14] because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

1Corinthians 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. [12] So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! [13] No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

1Corinthians 15:1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. [2] By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Colossians 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- [23] if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

1 Timothy 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

1Peter 4:18 And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"*

2Peter 1:10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,


Revelation 3:2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. [3] Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I know that every scripture is not an iron clad argument and some are a little ambiguous. I just wanted to show that God has given us, from the beginning to the end, a choice in the matter. He gave the nation of Israel a choice all the way up to us. I truly think that our salvation is dependent on choices we must make to actively pursue it. (works is not in the equation, but a heart condition is) God will be the ultimate Judge and He is Just. All Praise and Glory and Honor be to HIM!


[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: SLattier ]

[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: SLattier ]

Very good point, Steve...

Okay, holiday is over...what about those thoughts that somebody had for me??

Predestination

Ephesians 1:3-11 (NKJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him. 11In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Romans 8:29-30

29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Then in Romans 9:15 it says:

For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."

What does predestination mean to you?

Hmmm...well, as I said I haven't done much discussing over the mater of predestination, but what I always believed it meant was that everyone has a destiny that God planned for us.

We also have a choice whether or not to fulfil that destiny.

If I choose Christ and allow the blood that He allready shed for me to cover my sins, then through Him I can fulfil my destiny.

If I choose not to, then I will have to face the consequences of my choice not to fulfil my destiny.

Ah-HA!



That chapter in Romans has a lot more going on in it than predestination... just back up one more verse and we see:

"28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."

Love is a verb.

I believe that predestination is ours if we choose it... kinda like the discussions regarding God's Will for our lives and His Perfect Will... are we content with being back row Christians, getting by just enough to slide into heaven safe, or are we trusting enough in God's more perfect plan for our lives and be all we can be in Him? Even if that plan is to witness to the guy we see at the gym daily, to show God's love and mercy in the internet forums where thousands visit, or to be a greeter at the church God has planted us in?

Some excellent points worth discussing here, that I've never really considered before.

Agree with you Michelle. If it was up to God ALL of us would be destined to join Him in heaven, unfortunately there is this thing called free will

aleina

Preach it sista!

What happened to our sistern who had other ideas... no time to collect'm?

Allen was that sistern or cistern.........?????


ROFLOLOLOL

Actually it was Sistine...I've been at the Chapel, on my back, gazing and waiting for Divine inspiration...

But don't expect a posting in the near term, these last few weeks have left me quite "dense"

(Steve...heed THIS warning...one crack about the word DENSE and you will pay dearly...)