I stand right with Embie on this one. In my flesh, which is all I have to discern the circumstances, and given the little info that you posted Allen. I would say that this person did blaspheme the Holy Spirit and has committed the only unforgiveble sin.

As I see it blesphemy of the Holy Spirit is any of these:

1. simple denial of his existence. (which would also commit the others below)

2. Denial of his part in raising Jesus bodily from the grave

3. Denial that it is though him that God administers His power in us.

4. Taking credit for acts done by or through the Holy Spirit.

Its not written anywhere in the Bible what Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is but looking up the original greek definitions has led me to this interpretation.

*Reality check, while I beleive that this person has done the undo-able it is between them and God. It would be my duty to tell them though....

God bless you
Steve

about that whole athiest thing maybe i didnt really under stand it but.....if he thinks that because he's saved hes going to heaven even though he is athiest...well then doesnt that kind of defy the point of being athiest?????

and i think that we are always saved but if we decide to turn away then yes we can still go to hell but you dont get saved again you just rededicate......see i think it all really depends on what your defenition of the term saved is .........if it means to you that jesus will SAVE us from hell then no your not safe at all when you turn away........but if it means to you that jesus dies on the cross for our sins and you except that and except him as your lord and savior.....then i believe that term sticks with us always; however i think we can turn away but it never removes the fact that we did accept him as our personal savior..........so once again it all depends on your perception of the term SAVED

please forgive me for misspelling.
thank you

The thread that will not die....

Nobody mis-speeels worse than I do NE17

A different angle if you will... if our eternal salvation is set in stone (or the Lamb's Book of Life - even better ), then why does Jesus make it a point to tell us to be on our guard for His return?

Matthew 25:13
"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Mark 13:35-37

"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back--whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.

If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping.

What I say to you, I say to everyone: `Watch!'"

He talks as if we must be ever vigilant against being left behind. Matthew 24 and Luke 17 is where Jesus talks about 1 being taken and the other left behind. He also says that there will be those who are "cut into pieces and given the place with the hypocrites where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth." He doesn't say these were bad people when He left them, only that they weren't ready when He came back...

What do *you* think He is trying to say here?

One of my references for your perusal.. Jesus spends a good deal of time on this subject (~2 chapters or so in Matthew)

Click Here

Allen...so much to post and so little time

Will respond tonight in the wee hours when I can steal some quiet time...

/

I have time to wait...

i agre with most of your point but i think that God just wants us to be faithful and not every body turns away on purpose i know that for me i just gradually let sin creep in until i was in quick sand and it kept sucking me in and before i knew it i was in over my head and only jesus could get me out.
and also there is a poem that some one wrote

they said "Jesus i look backand see two sets of foot prints and then in the worse parts of my life i see one set ..why did you leave me?" and jesus says "my son i never left you cuz when you were going through those bad times and there were one set of prints those were mine carrying you"

so see he never leaves us and he always takes us back but some time we mistakenly turn away.

Where to start...

I believe that the enemy can oppress not only our mind and spirit, but any part of our being including our body and soul. Oppression leads to depression and depression can lead to devasation. We have the ability to resist the devil by the authority given to us through Jesus. We can spend out lives backing up from the devil or we can force him to back up. God gives us a choice Life or death. I don't think that He just intended it to mean the figurative Salvation or separation, but also to mean living, really living. We can choose to passively listen to the devil and let him ruin our lives, or we can take an active stand against him and LIVE in the fullness of life God has provided for us through Jesus. Either way we still get to Heaven, but the road could be so much smoother if we stay awake for the devil's temptaions, be alert to his schemes and pray for the Lord's protection.

I also believe that He speaks of those that "think" they are Christians because they hold an enormous amount of knowledge where the scriptures are concerned, but lack that personal, intimate relationship that Jesus desires from us. His statement to the Pharisees about not knowing them explains that.

The Christian's necessity to know God's Word and to be ready when He returns is apparent in Matt 24:4-5
Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, `I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

In 24:13
but he who stands firm to the end will be saved

Here's what I get from my bible on this...The ones who persevere are the same ones that are saved- not the ones who's love grows cold. (The many parables of people instructed to wait or to do things for Jesus, but because the Master was "tardy" they gave up or gave in and were not prepared when He returned)

Our perseverance does not secure salvation, scriptures show us the opposite. God's saving work secures our salvation. True believers are "kept" by the power of God through faith for salvation (1 Peter 1-5)

(posting this then continuing...this 'puta is a bit dodgy and I don't want to loose all this... :eek

The guarantee of our perseverance is built into the New Covenant promise. God says "I will put my fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from me" (Jer 32:40) Those that do fall away prove that they were never truly believers to begin with (1 John 2:19) They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Scripture calls us to hold fast to our faith or warns us against falling away. Warnings and pleas are among the means that God uses to secure our perseverance in that faith.

Jumping down to Matt 24:40-41
40
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41
Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left

This doesn't pertain to the rapture but to judgement. Unbelievers will be judged. Believers are to be ready at all times as no one but the Father knows the date and time of Jesus' return. And even though Jesus took God's wrath at Calvary and believers will not be judged, we were given stewardship over our lives, wealth, natural abilities, and possessions and will stand before Him and give an account of how these things were used.

Tomorrow I will tell you what I think about hell, as it is now 3:45 am and I must be at church at 9:15. I will soon be doing my own weeping and gnashing of teeth...

Nighty Night

My quick $.02

I agree Allen, you and I seem to basically see eye to eye on this subject. I think that Jesus isn't so much speaking to watching and waiting and looking for signs of the end times, but simply to a permanent state of preparedness. If your/our heart is always ready to recieve him when he returns, then we will not "backslide" or ba part of the great apostasy, or blow it in any manner!

There my shortest opinion to date! ROFLOLOL

And all the Heavens and Earth rejoice!

awww...now that was just plain wrong, wasn't it...

want me to share with you what happened at the bridge tonight? that will make you smile... ROFLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: embie ]

thats a good way to put it slaiter, thas pretty cool

hmmmm.. using Old Testament scripture to support the New Covenant?

In 1 John, the author is talking of the anti-christ immediately before and after that scripture... do you think it applies to "security of our faith"?

The Old Testament is the New Teatament concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed

Gotta get back to ya on One John I just wanted to get this retort in first

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: embie ]

And a mighty fine retort it was... almost as good as "a stitch in time saves nine" and the always popular "a bird in the hand will usually pee in it".

Yes, the OT conceal NT teachings, and the NT reveal O.. wha? We must be careful about stretching OT teachings to prove our points regarding the teachings of Jesus in the NT.

why?

(couldn't think of any other retort except...I hope you will see your pomegranates wither, thou son of a Philistine!...ROFL )

Hey...all kidding aside...I am certainly NOT a theologian. I just find that my believes fall in-line with OSAS. That doesn't mean I'm a believer in sinning at will (tho sometimes I am guilty of that) but I do believe in unending love and mercy. I think it's all about grace, and I am so very thankful for that...

This might not be the spot for it, but on my way in to work this am, I heard this song for the first time and the words just stuck with me...

Redeemer Savior Friend

I know You had me on Your mind
When You climbed up on that hill
For You saw me with eternal eyes
While I was yet in sin
Redeemer Savior Friend

Every stripe upon Your battered back
Every thorn that pierced Your brow
And every nail drove deep through guiltless hands
Said that Your love knows no end
Redeemer Savior Friend

Redeemer redeem my heart again
Savior come and shelter me from sin
You're familiar with my weakness
Devoted to the end
Redeemer Savior Friend

So the grace you pour upon my life
Will return to You in praise
And I'll gladly lay down all my crowns
For the Name by which I'm saved...

..................................................

Thank you Jesus...The only good thing about me is You. /

[ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: embie ]

Once we are saved, we are always saved? What if someone does accept Jesus as their saviour and then goes out and gloates about it; "It doesn't matter how much I sin, I was saved once so I am saved forever." If you are truly saved, would you act like that?? KNOWING, instead of BELIEVING, that we are saved forever could defeats its purpose, it could make us smug instead of humble.

I believe I am saved, but it's up to God to KNOW and us to FIND OUT

Being truly saved, I think, is just the start of a process in which you strive to be closer to God. Be willing to repent your sins and pray for wisdom and knowledge so you will know what sin is and how to avoid it. Understand that it's up to God to decide whether you end up in heaven or not.

So my answer is YES BUT... how do we define SAVED? Which might be a whole new topic

And I hope all this made sense LOL

aleina

Aleina, it made perfect sense. This topic is one that is arguable from both standpoints, and more often than not it turns into a flame war (just ask embie, we've both seen it before).

I don't want to start any wars or fights, but I'll give my $.02.

I do believe in OSAS, in a way. I do not agree with the way some people portray OSAS. Like I've seen cartoons that show a preacher syaing we can sin all we want because we're OSAS. Not true.

When you accept Christ, your sinful desire is weakened. The battle of the flesh and spirit begins. Before accepting Christ, your spirit is "dead." Meaning it doesn't fight with the flesh. Example: Before accepting Christ, you probably wouldn't think twice about committing a certain sin. But after accepting Christ and becoming saved, the Holy Spirit enters and is battling with that sinful nature of the flesh...and you begin asking yourself questions..."Should I really be doing this?" Or "this isn't right."

Jesus did say we are "dead to sin." But that does not mean we can do whatever we want. After salvation, your DESIRE to sin is much less. I can't say you don't have that desire, because we ALL do. And sometimes we may slip and act upon those sins.... But that is why we need Christ always. If God said that you were saved and no matter what you did after that, you would still be saved, then why would we need him after salvation.

See that's the point. We are always in need of Christ. Our flesh battles with the Holy Spirit and Christ is there to catch us when the flesh is "winning the battle." Just like the Footprints in the Sand. He's carrying us. No one ever said the walk would be easy, but the rewards are grand.

So, you see, I believe in OSAS, but not the way it is taught...we can't do anything we want....but those who are truly saved.....don't have the desire to sin (eventhough it's inevitable). Darn flesh

That makes very good sense, and good points all of you.

I do have a question about the last post:

When I was younger (but completely in understanding of Christ and salvation and the Holy Spirit which I understood at a young age) I gave my life to God. I got saved...baptized, and even spoke in tongues. I remember it...it wasn't like I was repeating something I had seen...we would be praying in the classroom of our private school, and the spirit would take over and I would just start speaking in tongues and dancing and God had just taken over me.

Then there came a time when I grew completely away from God. It was like I had no concience at all. I was very sexually active and didn't feel a bit of guilt...I had a nasty foul mouth and was proud of it, I at one point contemplated killing my mother, I was experamenting with drugs, I dabled in a bit of scorcery and witchcraft, and I could have cared less what God thought. **** God. God can go to ****...and that was my philosphy. God is just rules and religion and God can go take a flying leap or go ************. And I meant it.

So was I saved at that point in time? I am not ascribing to the fact that I went away because I was never with Him because I KNOW I was. I was with Him all the way...but I turned away completely and even revoked Him. Not only denyed Him but spoke against Him. Took His name in vain...and there was none of this flesh vs spirit. My spirit was dead.

So did I commit the unforgivable sin? Is all of this that I do now in vain? All of my repentance, all of my living for God, all of my desire to love Him and have a relationship with Him...is it just a cry to deaf ears?

Or did I get saved, give the salvation back, and then repent and accept it again?

Somebody explain to me what I went through, because I know that I was saved when I was little, and I know that I was NOT through my middle years. Jesus had NO place in my life.

So now am I just eternally damned because I turned away? Or did I renew my salvation?

What's up?

Hey Michelle... My understanding is that you were always saved...you were in a very grave backslidden position, but the Lord would not let you go...obviously you are here, repentent, and now walking with God...He was always drawing you back, waiting patiently for you to repsond.

No, you weren't with God, and I'm guessing that's when you got pregnant? I know you love your daughter immensely but with her came a very large does of maturity and a very short "singlehood" for you. You now Trust the Lord and rely on His direction. Something you weren't doing back then. He always works things out for good.

And that's all I'll say about that...