good objection

my way may not be the right oppinion but i am open to better views
but like i said only God can judge not me <img src="smile.gif" border="0" alt="" />
i would love to share view points on this but just not typing cuz i have trouble reading long posts
maybe tonight at stand
[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: New_Era_17 ]

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: New_Era_17 ]

And God gives us the criteria on which he judges in His Word.

First off, let's break down what we allready know.

All have sinned. The wages of sin is death. But Christ came to pay the wages and give us the gift of salvation through His grace. Therefore we are no longer slaves of sin. And since we are no longer slaves we are free. And whoever the son has set free is FREE! (All of this is in the Bible...I promise).

Sin = breaking the law of God

Wages = something that is owed for a service

So we owe our souls' life for breaking the laws of God, and thus making us a

Slave = one who serves without pay

This is what being a slave to sin. We are serving an eternal sentance without pay to make up for a debt that we owe.

But this is where Jesus comes in.

Gift = something that is given out of love; does not need to be repayed.

Grace = a payment that is undeserved, but given to pay the debt of another.

Free = unrestrained.

We owed the debt for our sin, which made us a slave to sin. But since we have the gift of grace, we are now free! We are now no longer under the penalty of the law, but under the gift of grace and therefore we are free of our debt.

So no longer being a slave to sin does not mean that we do not sin...it means that our sins no longer hold the penalty of eternal damnation. There is a catch, tho. You have to confess that Jesus is your one and only Savior, and through that act of faith, you will be saved. Then you should keep that faith alive by continuing in an active relationship with Him...because faith without works is dead. Are we saved through our works? No...if we were, then we would not need grace. (Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!")

Which means that we can never substitute that gift of grace for righteousness

Righteousness = sinlessness

We allready defined sin as the thing that separates us from God and that is breaking the law of God. So even if it were possible to never sin, we still could not attain salvation through righteousness. It has to come through grace.

Does that give us permission to keep sinning?

Romans 6:15-16 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness...

What's that? We are now free from sin, but we are slaves to obedience to Christ!

Does it say anywhere that obedience = perfection? No...but obedience leads to righteousness. So could that mean that the more we are obedient to Christ the more his grace can work through us to make us righteous???
Hmmmm...just a thought...hope that helps at least a little...

Just something else I thought might interest you.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ JESUS our LORD.

Notice that in this diagram of the vers, each key word is the exact opposite of the word that it is across from:

Wages ------------+------------ Gift
Sin ----------------+------------ God
Death -------------+------------ Life


+ represents Jesus on the cross. The cross bridges the gap between the opposites when Jesus becomes the Lord of our life. <img src="smile.gif" border="0" alt="" />

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: foreverchanged ]

thank you michelle, that was very well put!!!!!!

bbahhhh.. a gift is not a gift unless you accept it. It can't be forced on you. The scriptures you are quoting from Paul does say we are free from the wages of sin when we are controlled by the Spirit... but he still says wages of sin is death. He still says "I die daily". Where do you draw the line then about how many sins you can commit and still get your "get out of jail free" card?

Is one lie ok? How about 10 or 20?

If I cheat on my wife, am I still ok because I don't have kids yet, so I am only hurting 3 people (me, my wife, and the other woman), and not some children too?

Does shoplifting a couple of cookies still keep my in the clear because I coulda taken 5 or 6?

What about murder? Am I still ok, I mean, I accepted Christ as my personal savior, and I didn't mean too, but I was drunk at the time, and he shouldn't have cut me off on the highway, so it's at least partially his fault. Am I still ok?

Rape?

Suicide?

How about some things a little more to our liking:

How about not tithing? I really want to, but I like having a cell phone, and I can't afford to do both... am I still ok?

Driving above the speed limit, is that ok as long as I have my seat belt on?

What about unforgiveness, hatred toward my brother? Gossip? Sexual Impurity? Drunkeness? Illegal Drugs? Making money my god? Envy? Deciet?

Which of these are still ok to do and not ask forgiveness for and still make it into heaven?

I wanna know so I know which ones to coast on...

We walk a very thin line to believe that once we are saved we have free reign to sin and still "be covered in case of emergencies"... We can wanna believe all we want that "God is love, He wouldn't send me to hell because I sinned and didn't bother to repent" - Sin is still separation from God.

Yes, we are under grace, but it isn't a gift forced on you at the time of salvation, and it's not something you have to work for, but you do have to accept the gift. You sin willingly, you must ask forgiveness for those sins, or, as you have said, what's the use in Christ dieing on the cross? There is still an action on our part as free-will beings to accept that...

[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Allen ]

Good thoughts Allen.

Your post touches on an area I have meant to study. Sin. There are two catagories of sin with two subcatagories each (of course God being the judge of all)

1. Willfull sin..........2. Ingnorant sin
a) sin of comission.......a) sin of comission
b) sin of omission.......b) sin of omission

I beleive what the topic was trying to investigate was a "ignorant" sin of either catagory near death that was not revealed in time to be repented of.

I think I will leave that one up to God and just shoot for a closer walk every day!

God bless ya!

[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: SLattier ]

never said you didn't have to die daily. i totally believe that you can reject the gift after you accept it...and that is why you can't just go on sinning...

Steve's point about willful sin pretty much ties it together. If you have a close relationship with God, if you sin as soon as you realize it is a sin (and He will convict you on it) you will more than likely repent. But sometimes there are sins (like I mentioned earlier...a little white lie) that are just as much sins as the rest of them, but initially we do not realize what we have done. And after we do, we repent.

It goes back to the difference between grace and law that we talked about in "whosoever". Yes, if I cheated on my husband, killed someone, robbed a liquor store, I would know that I had sinned immediately, and should repent immediately. But if I sin and am not really aware of what I did (because sometimes we honestly don't GET IT until later)...and I die before I realize what I did, I believe that grace covers that.

But I guess that's up to God to decide...

One other thing that I wanted to bring up too about the scripture that I used...None of them gave me the "get out of jail free" card. I did say there was a "catch". A price. I have to step out in faith by accepting the gift, and then I have to keep the faith alive by becoming a slave to obedience. Obedience says that if you sin then you repent... Thought I made it clear...sorry if it sounded like you didn't have to excersise your free will in the matter. It's a daily, sometimes hourly choice.

I believe I understood what you were meaning, but I could also see how some people would view it as though forgiveness is no longer a requirement after initial salvation.

1 John 1:8-10

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Steve, are there cases of ignorant sin? It seems sin is a willful matter, tho I might be mistaken... <img src="smile.gif" border="0" alt="" />

James 4:17
Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I wouldn't guess this excludes an act that we don't know is sin as sin, but do you have an example?

stickin my sinful nose in for a sec...(cos Steve's on nights and it'll be ages till he posts again...)

I found this on the net and thought it would be a good discussion provoker... personally, I think you CAN commit a sin and not be aware of it at the time, but I have to agree, you cannot confess something that you are not aware of. What I do in times of uncertainty is to ask the Lord to reveal those sins that I have so conveniently tucked away as acceptable... That, my dear brothers and sisters, is a very humbling moment...

Repentance---Sinning in the Dark
by Lindell Mitchell

Some pray the Lord to forgive our sins of ignorance. Painfully aware of man's unworthiness before God, they do not want to leave any transgression unresolved. Still, such a prayer is of little practical value.

It is impossible to repent of a transgression of which you are ignorant. You cannot abandon a sinful practice until you know precisely what constitutes a transgression. Yet, forgiveness is contingent upon repentance.

Is there an excuse for a Christian to be ignorant of sin. How long does it take a computer to print out the "thou shafts" and "thou shalt nots" in the Bible? Reading the passages with understanding would take less than a day. Any semblance of an excuse for sin would evaporate with the reading.

Asking forgiveness for "sins of ignorance" is questionable.

One group heard among us champions the "grace only" theology. Christians are urged not to burden themselves with worry over their sins, especially "sins of ignorance."

We are assured that salvation is solely a matter of grace. "It is God's job, let him bear the burden." Allegedly, God will not condemn anyone who is doing the best he knows when he dies.

A sugar-stick pressed into error's service at this juncture is:

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

This text allegedly provides assurance that one who dies in ignorance is safe because his ignorance protects his place in the light.

The passage teaches no such thing. God's fellowship is not for those walking in darkness. Claiming fellowship with God while walking in darkness is a lie. To be in fellowship requires "walking in the light," which is the essence of godliness (cf. 1 John 2:9-11; Col. 1:12; Eph. 5:8).

Continuous cleansing is contingent upon walking in the light. Fellowship with one another is also contingent upon walking in the light. You cannot walk in the light and darkness at the same time. You cannot walk in the light accidentally. To continue in the light, you must deliberately avoid darkness.

1 John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to clean us from all unrighteousness." God's promise to forgive is conditioned upon confession. You cannot confess a sin of which you are ignorant.

Our criminal code is based on the principle that men should be punished in a manner commensurate with their guilt. Guilt is determined by the responsibility of the person accused. Jesus recognized this principle in the parable of the wicked servant:

And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes (Luke 12:47-48).

Notice that no guilty person was excused. The man who "knew not" should have known!

All received punishment portioned to their powers, opportunities, and knowledge. Each passing day erodes any legitimate appeal to ignorance.

There are different levels of knowledge, degrees of preparation, and varying amounts of service rendered among Christians. These differences will be factored into the administration of rewards and punishments. We leave the disposition of every case in the capable hands of God, but must not excuse or diminish the gravity of sin in the mind of any man.

One begins the Christian walk as an ignorant novice, but he must grow to maturity. He must eagerly desire the milk of God's Word that he may grow (1 Pet. 2:2). It is not permissible to remain in a state of perpetual infancy. A nursing baby is a winsome joy. A nursing 18-year-old would be an embarrassing monstrosity.

My experience with those advancing "ignorance" as an excuse for sin, and appealing to grace as a cure, has been enlightening. So far, without exception, they have been Christians for decades. They cannot successfully plead ignorance! If they are ignorant, it is willful ignorance. It is the result of stubborn rebellion.

It is the product of their refusal to read and heed God's Word. "That ole dog won't hunt."

[T]he times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained (Acts 17:30-31).

*raises hand from the back of the room* I gotta question.

Are we supposed to repent for every single sin specifically? Because if so, I'm going straight to hell. I know there are sins that I haven't repented for by name, but for the life of me, I can't remember all of them...there were so many!

Are we supposed to say, God, I'm sorry for the time I ---- and I'm sorry for that time that I ---------- and I really sorry for the time that I - and please forgive me for my sin of ----------- and it goes on and on...???

I have asked God to show me any unrepented sin persay, and I have repented for things as a whole, but I don't think I could ever call out all of my sins by name and repent. Does that mean that I'm not saved and that everyone has a better memory than me?

I prolly knew I was sinning at the time I did it...and have since repented for other sins...but I haven't repented for the time that I "------" because I don't know what "------" was!

SO that makes it willful sinning and not ignorance, but forgetfulness...

Does that mean you have to repent for the sin of forgetfulness???? And what if you never realize you forgot them? Does that make it the sin of ignorance again?

This is all so confusing!

LOL...whoa...take a breath!!! <img src="wink.gif" border="0" alt="" />

Well, here is my take on forgiveness and sin... God sees your heart...He knows your character and what you're made of...we'll never "trick" God into believing that we've repented of something that we haven't. There will be judgement..we will all stand before the Lord. But what we won't have to do is bear the wrath of God. Jesus did that for us on the cross. He only had to die once and all our sins were forgiven...past present and future sins. He knew the sins I would commit next week and yet He still died for me. I couldn't do anything to earn salvation, so I can't do anything to lose it. I think Christians make salvation so very difficult.
I think it's gonna be this simple when we get to heaven...

Jesus? Yes? ok..you can go...
Jesus? No? sorry...

OSAS? Absolutely! Is it a license to sin? Absolutely NOT. If you are truly a child of God, you will not remain in sin but turn from it. You will seek His righteousness in your own life and rebuke the devil. It's the unrepentent heart that becomes hardened. After a while we are no longer convicted and the Lord turns us over to our sins...Very scary.

i agree with embie....(and I have scripture to back it up

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by delight:
i agree with embie</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">

ummm... you've agreed with everyone so far <img src="tongue.gif" border="0" alt="" />

Finding a scripture to back up your thinking is a lot like statistics, you can find the right ones to say most anything. The breadth of the scriptures must be taken into acct... and erring on the side of cautiousness is always better than the other way, you don't get a second chance then.

as far as saved always saved (this topic ) i hope those people were saved on that plane or at least accepted christ at the last minute <img src="frown.gif" border="0" alt="" />

The proof is in the pudding.

Here is one that supports my personal views.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> 1Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. [25] Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. [26] Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. [27] No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">

Here is one that supports OSAS.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">John 6:58 [58] This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." [59] He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">

I do not think that is matters to your salvation whichever you believe. I am a conservative when it comes to Bible interpretation. I belive that I can blow it, nuff said. I have been on other boards that will fight tooth and nail over doctrine, totally blowing their Christian witness in the process! More importantly that we share the gospel and live the great comission!

Allen with the confusion of this day the only example I can come up with would be some sort of lie. One that you believed was true when you spread it. It would not be any less an untruth, yet not willing on the persons part.

God Bless America!

Agreed Steve... the quote from Corinthians is one of my favorite set of verses, I have quoted it here a few places and also the favorite of many Christian athletes. The quote from John could still possibly mean something that isn't done just once as the reference to bread illustrates, since bread was consumed daily and the central part of all their meals. Jesus didn't say he who eats this bread will live forever, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever... signifying an ongoing process to me...

We could debate the minuteness of the shades of differences a good while... erring on the conservative side is a bit wiser, it seems to me <img src="smile.gif" border="0" alt="" />

hmmm.. a question for the OSAS crowd... <img src="wink.gif" border="0" alt="" />

A friend of mine says she has an athiest friend who says he's covered by today's Christian terms because he was saved when he was 13 and it can't be "undone".

Biblical Fact or Baseless Fiction?

I am basically OSAS...but ...

My answer would depend on exactly what this 'atheist' really believes and what he has expressed.

Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

(my understanding is that repentence is also required here.)

If he has denied the Holy Spirit, I would guess, according to this scripture, that he's toast.


BUT...God is the only One that can see into and judge hearts. I wouldn't be so bold as to make assumptions on anything as final as salvation... I'll leave that to the Redeemer.

Good answer! Good answer!

Survey Says:...

<img src="biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" />