Okay...I had to do this. It was starting to bother me...the 8 pages and all.

Please read pg 8 before reading the rest of this, because all this post is here for is to compile and carry over the questions that I have allready asked over there...but the explinations and lead-ups to the questions are not here. I will follow up this post with some more curiosity questions.


About natural selection: It implies that nature selects who goes and who stays. How does nature know? Is nature a supreme being? Does nature have a thought process? And if not, how could nature "select" anything?


You used the word "miraculous". Which stems from the word "miracle". Miracles don't just happen. Who performs the miracles?


About natural selection, miraculous unexplained phenomina. About spoons and cats and trees and other dimensions. About things that you don't even have a CLUE about the answer to. Why is it easier for you to accept other dimensions and "I don't know" rather than to accept what millions of people allready know and have experienced? Something that is written out for you?

Okay, more questions.

What do you think of me? Honestly. You seem to think I'm okay right? But you must think that I am a fool. An out and out wacko. A crazy person. Why? Well, because I sing to the air. (In your opinion.) I waste my time. I go to church for what reason? Pray to nothing, talk to (myself?) God, attribute things to God that God has nothing to do with (because He doesn't exist in your dimension, right?) So do you think I am decieved? And who came up with this whole thing if it isn't real? Who do YOU think wrote the Bible and why? What did he/she have to gain? And why do millions of people believe in it if there is really nothing there to believe in? (and let's not go back to the whole cop-out thing again...) Why would people sacrifice thier lives? Why would people give up everything that they own? Why would people completely give up things that they would really like to do...if they hadn't really experienced something? You asked me why would we worship and dedicate our lives to such a blurry concept....to us it is not blurry. We do not pretend to know everything just as you don't pretend to know everything. But we DO know the source of most things. Some of those things which you do not even have a clue as to where they could have come from. Why? Why would we do all of these things for a blurry fuzzy concept? We wouldn't. He is real to those who seek Him. I'm not trying to get you to accept anything here, I just wanna know how your mind works when it comes to these things...

Okay...so to compile the questions in this post:

Do you think I'm crazy?
If you do, then why do you have any interest in what I have to say?
Do you think I'm decieved?
If so, by who?
Who do you think wrote the Bible?
And why?
What did they have to gain?
And why would millions of people believe if they hadn't seen something?
Ever consider that maybe we really have experienced something that you just haven't experienced yet? That it really IS real, you just haven't seen it yet? Felt it?
You speak of other dimensions. Is it possible that there are different dimensions?
So maybe God really DOES exist in MY dimension because I really HAVE experienced Him, just as the tree really DOES exist in some lower life forms dimension (say the bug/dog/plant that it fell on...), and that if you really were to experience God, then He could exist in your dimension? (you said that if you saw Him you would believe...) You could find the fallen tree if you look hard enough. You could find God if you look hard enough. But who cares about a tree? Not you right? And who cares about God? Not you, right? Then why are you still here???

Welcome back, DA. I've been off for a few days and a whole new section gets started! Again!
Do you like to read? May I suggest some excellent reading on this topic? The things you have been saying reminded me of this, and it is a different style than what has been tried here so far, maybe it would clear things up for you. Try it:
"The Problem of Pain" by CS Lewis

Now, please forgive me for a really long quote, but I have to show you this part that you reminded me of. I'll put it in a separate post, if anyone doesn't feel like reading such a long quote, just skip the next post...

------------------

Not many years ago when I was an atheist, if anyone had asked me, "Why do you not believe in God?" my reply would have run something like this: "Look at the universe we live in. By far the greatest part of it consists of empty space, completely dark and unimaginably cold. The bodies which move in this space are so few and so small in comparison with the space itself that even if every one of them were known to be crowded as full as it could hold with perfectly happy creatures, it would still be difficult to believe that life and happiness were more than a by-product....
and what is that life like while it lasts? It is so arranged that all forms of it can live only by preying upon one another. In the lower forms this process entails only death, but in the higher there appears a new quality which enables it to be attended with pain. The creatures cause pain by being born, and live by inflicting pain, and in pain they mostly die....
Their history is largely a record of crime, war, disease, and terror, with just sufficient happiness interposed to give them, while it lasts, an agonised apprehension of losing it, and, when it is lost, the poignant misery of remembering...
If you ask me to believe that this is the work of a benevolent and omnipotent spirit, I reply that all the evidence points in the opposite direction. Either there is no spirit behind the universe, or else a spirit indifferent to good and evil, or else an evil spirit.

That was a shortened version of the introduction. CS Lewis goes on to answer his own questions and explain what made him become a Christian in spite of all that. If you want the answer he got, you'll have to read the book, because my quote is already too long.

------------------

HI DA! I'm Alanna...maybe you remeber me from one of the million posts that were posted about your topic. I was the one that had Cancer. Just wanted to tell you how incredibly cool you are how much I admire you for working out your beliefs, though I do not agree. But I'm a TERRIBLE debater, so I'm just going to leave that stuff to Michelle and Allen and Whit-dawg who seem to do a pretty good job! Just wanted to tell you HI! and that you and God would get along great if you gave him a chance...your both very analitical. Sheesh, you have to be analytical to create the whole universe! And as for my input of the quantum-physics tree thingy, God hears, because if he knows every hair on our heads, then he knows every blade of grass and tree on the planet personally! Ever talked to a tree? They are really good listeners! Just don't scream at them like whit-dawg does! They don't like it! Oh yea, what do you think about parapsycology?

~Alanna

------------------
"...It's all about you, all about you Jesus..."

Hello again DA!
Good to have you back.

------------------
- John

NO! I think you truly believe in god...and he may exist for you...just not for me...even if I DID believe, he would still not exist...

Even if I did think you (and all believers) were crazy, I would still talk to and take and interest in you guys...you are really great people. I'm not sure if you are decieved or not...if you were, then MILLIONS would be decieved...but it goes back to the hundreds of religions out there...SOMEONE is being decieved...I don't care what you say, NOT EVERYONE can be right...ergo...MILLIONS ARE being decieved...and you all just have to figure out who it is...and hope its not you...as for me...since I don't believe, and never will, I am not so obtuse or stubborn as to claim that I may indeed be the one being decieved...

I don't know...perhaps someone that has perpetrated the single biggest con job in the world. I don't say that disrespectfully (so please foreverchanged...don't ATTACK... )...It is simply a theory...as far as what they had to gain...well, how about knowing their story would be read for thousands of years...and knowing that they pulled off the biggest farce (my opinion...) in history...
As far as the millions of people...like I said earlier...someone (millions) are wrong...WHO??? WHY??? Whos to say who is wrong??? If a single human believes in his/her god...then in their mind THEY are right, and no amount of convincing will change their outlook...no matter what. You have all presented wonderful and convincing evidence that your god exists...yet I still don't believe...and the buddist, taoist, etc...dosen't believe you, yet still believes in their god...and could present just as convincing an argument that their gods existence...SO WHO IS RIGHT??? And more importantly (for believers anyway...) WHO HAS BEEN FOOLED????????? And...if someone, ANYONE, has been fooled...then someone had to have fooled them...was it the author of the bible? Koran? Confucious...?

NO...I do NOT care about god...because he dosen't exist (for me). If I saw him, I would believe (well...maybe). I am still here because I like our debate, consider you friends, and truly respect you for your beliefs and the principles that guide your actions and lives...yet it is not for me. I too have a set of principles I live by...honesty, integrity, assertiveness, looking out for my people, risking my life to save others, and respect for other,s beliefs...regardless of what they believe or who they are. I don't deny I could be wrong...and if god showed himself to me, I would accept him/her/it/them/those guys...but until then I cannot and will not accept something based faith or someone's foolish writings (no offense). Perhaps my self reliance precludes me from accepting that which I cannot experience, but if god did exist, would he not be able to penetrate my wall of will? Could he not shatter the window through which I view the world? Could he not tear the fabric of my self reliance and non-belief that I may bask in his glory? I have faith in many things...but faith and belief are two different things...I have faith the guy that packed my parachute was paying attention and knew what he was doing...but this may not be the case...I have faith there will be a tomorrow, but whos to say? Perhaps it is that outlook that dosen't allow me to accept a god based on faith...I could be wrong, god may exist, but what if you are wrong? What if the millions of people that worship their version of god are wrong? Then they have dedicated their lives to nothing for no reason. If I am wrong, I spend eternity in hell...frankly, I'll take that chance...I may regret it, but faith, to me, is too flimsy. The bible is not enough. I do not mean to sound cavalier, but as I ramble on here, I am simply trying to tell how I think. I have no qualms at all stating that I may spend eternity in hell because in my mind there is no hell. I don't deny I could be wrong about god, he may exist...but I am also certain that he dosen't exist...I am 100% certain that I am right...becasue I have faith in myself and my beliefs...could it be any other way? Not for me...

------------------
CRAZY STUBBORN ATHIEST!

To all that have welcomed me back...thanks...you are all great people...

Alanna...I don't have a clue about parapsychology...as it relates to ESP, I think there is something there...not sure what...as I have stated before...most of us use only about 10-15% of our brain power...I think some people have the ability to harness more...and I also believe if we ALL had the ability to harness 100% of our brain power...the world would be a much better place.

Thanks again for welcoming a non-believer into you cyber lives...

------------------
CRAZY STUBBORN ATHIEST!

Or the world might be even crazier than it is now . Just wanted to say hi, Jim. Good to hear from ya. I haven't had alot of time to really sit down and read the discussions the last couple of days but I will jump in anyways . I know I could talk your ear of about evidence of God, theologies, etc. Everything that you have heard and more, but Im just gonna ask you a curious question. what would it take for you to believe in the existence of God, a higher being, whatever? A great miracle? A haunting dream? A face-to-face encounter. . .????



------------------
crazy white girl

Attack, Jim, really? Whatever do you mean??? *look of completely innocent puzzlement* (there was no smilie that depicted the look I wanted to give...)

Wait...Allen put some new ones up...how's this:
--------------

gggggrrrr?

Not to answer for Devil's Advocate or anything...I know he can answer for himself, but I just thought I'd say it so he doesn't have to repeat himself:

He believes that miracles don't come from God. He either thinks they come from within our mind, or he just doesn't KNOW...except for that he is 100% sure that they don't come from God because God doesn't exist. (in his dimension.)

I'm sure that he would kindof explain dreams in the same way he explained visions of the great beyond after one has a traumatic event happen (such as visions of light at the end of tunnels and visions of heaven and hell)...
It's all in the mind. A person hears that if they die, they will see the light at the end of the tunnel (or feel the HEAT at the end of the tunnel ) and so they fabricate the visions subconsciously. Or something like that. So if he had a dream about hell...he would prolly blame it on me for telling him about how horrible of a place it will be for him if he doesn't wise up... (no offense Jim...please don't scream at me...or say the word "rubbish" anymore...)

First he said that if God showed Himself, then he would believe. Then he said that MAYBE he would believe. I told him this:

You say that you will not believe until you see.
I say that you will not see until you believe.

But he does not want to believe, because that would mean that he would have to let go of all of that trust and "faith" that he puts in himself.

That's all just in my humble oppinion.
Love ya Jim, and I'm still praying hard for you. Even tho you insist you are a lost cause. There are NO lost causes in God's eyes, therefore as much as you argue and insist that NEVERNEVERNEVER will you EVEREVEREVER believe, I will fight for you.
Because I love Him. And I love you.
In His Love,
Michelle

I never said that...?

[/b]
I have seen and spoken and read about and heard from buddists, muslims, agnostics, athiests, among many other religions who have been convinced that God exists and that He is the true God. One difference as I have allready pointed out between their gods (the ones who worship gods) and MY GOD, is that MY GOD IS ALIVE and THIER GOD IS DEAD. Funny thing is, I haven't heard of very many people who truely believe in God and know why they believe in Him turn to being an athiest, or a buddist or a muslim...doesn't that tell you something? Right back to that whole squash analogy that you hate so much. Anyone who has never expeirienced God is in a position that CAN BE CHANGED. Anyone who has truely experienced Him cannot UNEXPERIENCE HIM. That simple. That is why you see people from other religions flocking to Christianity, and people from NO religions flocking to Christianity. And you don't see true Christians turning into athiests and buddists. Once you have found the best the rest are just pests... I made that one up...I betcha couldn't tell. No really, once you have found the TRUE GOD, you can't go back. You can never be the same. No buddist has ever told me to experience budda. No muslim has ever told me to experience muhhamid. Because they know that budda and muhhamid and krishna ARE DEAD. God is not dead.


thank you.





ran out of time. will finish tomorrow.
goodnight all.

DO I NEED A MEGAPHONE????? If He did that, then there would be NO FREE WILL!!!!! He wants us to love Him by our own free will. If He "penetrated your wall of will" then that would defeat the whole purpose of putting you here on this earth in the first place...Yes HE CAN do it. But He won't. You either choose Him or you don't. That simple.


I thought I allready told you this. If I am wrong and after we die we just die, I don't feel as if I will have lost anything...what am I missing out on because I am a Christain??? Um...sex and lots of it. Diseases and lots of em. Heartache and feelings of being used. Drugs and dead brain cells and cigarretts and lung cancer and profanity pornography, prejudice, and all of that good stuff. Man...I feel like I'm missing out here! (not to imply that all non-Christians are like that. I know you're not. But I was.) That's what I have given up as a result of being a Christain. So if I die tomorrow and fade into nothingness, I won't even know it. So WHAT HAVE I LOST??? Nothing!
If you are wrong, and you never realize/admit it, then you will face an eternity of regret. I don't think you grasp the seriousness of that. Your comment "I may regret it" is like a slap in the face to me. You may regret it forever and not be able to do anything about it. Eternity is a really long time, Jim.



umm...I'm not quite sure that I understand that comment since it completely contradicts itself. [jim, paraphrased: I may be wrong, but I just can't be wrong.] You are willing to admit that you could be wrong, but you refuse to admit that you could be wrong.


It really could. But, alas, you don't want it to be. What are you going to do when you let yourself down? ps...I believe that it was you who called faith "flimsy"...

And what about my questions in my first post? I'm not trying to stump you...I know that's not possible. I just wanna know how you explain it...and why. Please?

------------------
the tYpInG FOOL

I would require that god show himself to me, perform a miracle right before my eyes, and show me heaven...a small request, but a request none the less...




------------------
CRAZY STUBBORN ATHIEST!

sup yo?

------------------
the tYpInG FOOL

FC (as I respectfully shorten your name)...what questions? Due to your prolific and articulate typing, I seem to have lost any "questions" in your patient, heartfelt, well organized, and lengthy answers...although I still don't believe in god...



------------------
CRAZY STUBBORN ATHIEST!

Sad, no? That will happen one day...most of it. And by then it will be too late...

Ummmm...The questions that I purposefully took out of my lenthy text and compiled them all in my first post in this thread for you...

Yes, Michelle's questions on page 1 of this section about 'natural selection' are good. That theory has never made sense to me. First there has to be something to select, how did it get there? By mutations, they say. Yet there is no documented case of a beneficial mutation. EVERY mutation ever observed has been harmful. Where did anyone ever get the idea that deformity is a good thing? Radiation does not produce higher orders of beings, it produces sickness and death. How is that a step up?
Once you clear that up for us, I have a few questions from the book I quoted previously about the existence of God, but I'll wait my turn. Michelle did ask hers first.

------------------