Very well stated Erin and Forever...

I, myself, have experienced a medically documented before-and-after miracle of healing... it is much easier for me to accept that God did it than to believe it a coincidence of happenstance, a freak of nature, a mind over matter occurence... cartilage just doesn't heal itself in a matter of days, if ever...

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Allen

And on the other end of the spectrum...what about curses and freaky stuff like that? I believe that they are just as real as miracles. When we were younger (my sister and I) we had a lady who worshiped satan living next door to us. My mom let me go over to her house (before she knew the lady worshiped satan of course) and some freaky stuff happened. I remember that her son and daughter would have seances in the room the bedroom. Candles and pentagrams and the works. Blood from God only knows where... and they would chant stuff over and over and over. And one time when they were doing this, they asked satan for a sign that he could hear them. I swear to you the shape of a 6 appeared on the wall. It looked like it had been burned into the wall, but yet there was no fire anywhere near the wall. Then the candle holders shattered simletaneously. The boy's name was Steven. He said that he sold his soul to someone named lucifer. He said he was under a contract and if he ever tried to break the contract he would die. I had no idea what any of this stuff meant. I do know that I wasn't supposed to tell, and I was young and I looked up to these people so I didn't. But Steven wanted out of his contract one day. He went to church and prayed to God instead of satan. On his way home--he walked because he didn't have a car--he was hit by a car. He would have lived maybe, but as his body lay in the road, an 18 wheeler ran over him and cut him in half. When the ambulance got there, he was still consceous. One half of his body laying on one side of the street, and the other half on the other side, and he talked to the paramedics. He said that he broke the contract, and then he died.

His sister still lived next door, and wherenever she was around, things would happen like stuff would fall off of shelves. One time, my sister and I were in getting in the tub...it was my birthday...I think I was 7 or 8...anyway, our bathroom was on the side of the house facing our strange neighbors...and the windows were closed. But you could hear her chanting because our houses were so close together. And all of the sudden as my sister was stepping over the edge of the tub, a glass jar flew out of nowhere...I saw it! It busted on the side of the bathtub and because of it's momentum when it hit the side of the tub, the shards flew everywhere, one of them heading for her face. I screamed JESUS (I dont know why...I was only 7 or 8 so I didn't possibly understand why I would think to scream that...no one in my family was in the habbit of screaming Jesus when something bad was about to happen...) but I did, and I pushed her down. She ended up falling in the tub and right onto one of the shards which sank into her shin. We had to rush her to the emergency room and to this day, she has a moon shaped scar on her shin that is sunken in and it still hurts once in a while. When we got home and examined the room, the window was still closed and locked, and the jar matched the collection of jars that were on the shelf in our neighbor's bedroom.

What happened? You can choose to believe me or not...doesn't matter, I know this won't change your mind about anything, but I sure didn't have to screw around with any facts to come up with a conclusion to that once I got a little older and understood a few more things. It didn't make any sense to me when I was little about the seances because I thought it was a game. And Steven never called satan by that name. He called him lucifer. I thought that lucifer was the cat in Cindrella. None of it made sense, but the memories are clear. And even though my parents didn't know about the goings on of the neighbors, and they didn't recognize the jar as one from her room because they had never been in her room, they knew something freaky was going on, because the window was closed and there was no ledge for the jar to fall off of, and we had never owned a jar like that...so how did it get into our house and how did it fly across the room? I still don't know. But I don't think it was a freak accident. And why did Steven die such a violent death the night that he went to church? I think he was knew the answer.

Anyway, I know that doesn't prove anything either, but I just want to know how you would go about explaining some of the stuff. If you could rationalize if for me, I would be much obliged. I don't talk about it any more, and I am not scared of it anymore, and I don't have nightmares about it anymore, but it still kinda freaks me out to think about it. And if you look at my sister's scar...

Not to be harsh foreverchanged, but where was god when Steven prayed to him?? Was "Lucifer" stronger than god???

I do not portend to be able to explain everything that happens in the world...I simply do not believe a god or devil has anything to do with the goings on...all of you are doing your best to convince me otherwise...yet I STILL do not believe...why? Why would god not show himself to everyone? How much better would the world be if your "god" wasen't so self absorbed so as to require everyone that would recieve his blessings to so fully and unconditionally worship and accept him!?!? How cruel a god that allows such heinous atrocities like the holocost and world wars!!! How cruel a god that requires complete dominance unto him so ye' may be saved!!! Must your god allow such suffering?? Must your god require any and all man, woman, and child to dedicate his/her very life and existance to him for the pale and blurry promise of a vague ideal known as heaven??? WHY????????? Why do you worship this "god" that allows such suffering? Why do you worhip this "god" with no concrete evidence???? How can you base your life on this esoteric concept known as "faith" without the slightest evidence this "god" exists?????? What is your faith based on....Strange things that occur which you call miricles...unexplainable phenomenon which you CHOOSE to explain as "gods work"?? RUBISH I say (with respect as to your beliefs)...but rubish none the same...IF this "god" of yours existed, based on all I have seen in the world, he would best be described as an egotistical, power hungry, fiend that gets his "jollies" by watching the "non-robots" suffer, simply because he is unwilling to show himself, or otherwise prove he exists!!!!!!! WHY WON'T HE SIMPLY SHOW HIMSELF SO WE COULD ALL TRULY BELIEVE?????????????? WHY THE TESTS?????????? I never, nor will I ever, believe in such a cruel and horrid being that you call "god"...



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CRAZY STUBBORN ATHIEST!

Sheesh, Jim, calm down!
Is that any way to say hi? After all this time you just disappear and then get all crazy on me?? Hello to you to!

Okay, Now that you are calm, I beleive that God heard Steven and had mercy on him and he allowed Steven to be taken away from the situation that he was in, and he is now in a better place.

As blurry of a concept as faith and heaven and God is to you, it is just as crystal clear to me. I do not need to see the nail holes. I do not base my faith on miracles. I do not base my worship on signs and wonders. I know God is real. I can't show you proof any more than you can show me proof that He doesn't exist. I wasn't trying to prove anything in my last post...I was just curious to see how you would go about explaining it...but noooooo, you got all cranky on me! So anyway, gonna post this and re read your post and finish my rebuttle.
again, nice to see your shiny happy face.

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the tYpInG FOOL

WOW JIM...really calm down...I have to agree with foreverchanged here. Our faith is based on something that you could never understand because you have never experienced it. We base our faith in God alone because of the wonderful things that He does in our lives. How do we just know that HE exists you ask? Because we can feel Him working in our lives.God works in mysterious ways but in the end of it all the truth is revealed and why He does the things he does is all explained in the end result. I'll tell you my own experience and its hard for me to talk about still. 2 years ago my father had a massive heart attack. The worst you can have. He had to have a quadrupil bypass. During the surgery, everything went wrong that could go wrong. His liver failed, his kidneys, everything kept messing up. Finally the doctor came out and said that they were trying to get his heart pumping again and that they had been trying for 10 mins to get it started. He said that they were going to try ONE more time...just ONE more...He said it in front of all of us and I dropped down on my knees and screamed to God just to help my fathers heart beat this last time. I had everyone close to me there...my church my friends and family..they were all praying for one last hope which the doctor didnt give us. He said that we should start making preparations. Finally he came in and by the grace of God his heart had started the last time that they were going to try. For the next month he lay in the ICU room drifting in and out of death and he finally made it..WHY do such terrible things happen to good people you ask? I have found the reason. My father was chosen by God to lead others closer to Him. Because of my father, more people drew closer to God then they ever had been...they prayed a little more, they had faith that God exists because of the great things that he did for my father. Even since then my father has had 7 other heart attacks. I dont know why...he is a healthy man. But there is something special going on....Great things are happening..I just know it because I have faith that God knows just what He is doing. I'll post more later...sorry that this is so long..

Erin Grace

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First of all, Jim says he wasn't cranky, so I apologize for saying that he was. But I still think he was.

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I explained the first part in my last post. Now for the second:
Lucifer aka Satan or Beelzibub or whatever name you want to give the ugly lowdown lying creep is NEVER stronger than God. NEVER. God kicks satans little yellow butt every day. But He does allow satan to do certain things. Why? Because Eve let satan decieve her in the first place, thus opening the door to a world of sin...blahblahblah...you are smart, you know the story. God won. I believe Steven is in Heaven with him. Satan lost. I think that Steven wasn't strong enough to battle what was going on in his home. It didn't hurt his family that he died. And it sure didn't hurt him if he is spending eternity with his maker.




Pride would be my guess. I can't explain everything either, but I know what's behind it. You can't give me even the slightest explination what is behind any of this stuff besides to say chance and coincidence and inner strength and a bunch of muhahaha like that. You're wanting nail holes and fire from the sky and voices in bushes, and sad to say I don't think that's going to happen. You don't believe because you don't want to let go of that self-reliance that you have inside of you. You think it would be a sign of weakness to admit that maybe--JUST MAYBE--the good and bad things that happen in your life (some of them) are beyond your control. You can't heal yourself of sickness. You can take care of yourself to avoid it, and yes, will power has something to do with it. But if you were to find out today that you had cancer, YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO HEAL YOURSELF by will power alone. That's just my humble opinion. You don't believe because you don't want to. And until you want to (which is gonna happen one of these days) you wont. That simple.


[/b]

It's not a requirement. It's an option. It IS only a requirement if you want to be with Him for eternity. If you want to not be with Him for eternity, that's your choice. Your mistake. Your booboo. God did not say, hmmmm, I think I am going to create human beigns who will maybe accept me and if they don't I am going to strike them down. I am going to send them into eternal torment. Hell is satan's home. That's your only other option. Sorry! There's no door number 3. God would have gladly communed with us one on one daily if we had not gotten greedy and decided that we wanted to be smarter than Him so we didn't need Him anymore. So that we could be self reliant. So that we could do our own thing. There have been rules from day 1. God made rules, and now there are man made rules. Then there are rules which we make for ourselves. There are penalties for breaking rules. Deal with it.



Why? Well let's just stop and think for a minute, Jim. Not everyone who doesn't dedicate his/her life to the cause of Christ is a "bad person". Look at you. You seem to be okay. I like you enough. You're a little stubborn at times, and maybe a little too defensive when it comes to certain things, but you're likeable. And you seem to have set some standards for yourself, which is good. But unfortunately, this is not true with everyone. We have the wackos and the psychos and the killers and the rapists and the door to door salesmen... Who have no conscience whatsoever. Now let's just picture it. Just for a second. Everyone in the whole world dedicating thier lives to the same idea the same concept the same Jesus that we (Allen, me, fbg, whit-Dawg, Slattier, Erin...just to name a few of the people who you have met here and seemed to get along with okay) anyway, the same Jesus that we are dedicating our lives to. If we all decided to admit that we aren't perfect, but that we will strive to love a perfect love and help everyone we meet and do our best to be like Him... If you and I could stop this silly debate and agree that He exists. If the president and the congress and the Queen of England, and the rulers of Europe and the dictators of Russia and Japan and China and everywhere else would decide to abide by God's laws and follow Jesus' example... If we could worry about how much we can give instead of how much we can get. If we would stop killing each other and killing babies and do things in the order that God called us to do them in!!! Do you honestly mean to tell me that you don't think the world would be a better place? See, unfortunately, everyone can't be cool like you and rely on inner strength. They have to rely on inner strength of others, and if they can knock others down, it makes them feel stronger. Unfortunately, everyone can't have a wonderful wife and a dog named Waldo, so if they can take yours, they would feel much better. So if we all could just follow the original rules..."Do not covet what is your neighbor's, Do not Kill, Put nothing before God....you mean to tell me that we all wouldn't be better off?

[/b]

Yes, Jim. That is very respectful. Thank you for showing how much you respect my beliefs. I do not believe that your inner strength and your self reliance is rubbish. They are just not enough. God is enough.


Again, that is a very respectful thing for you to say, Jim. And I have allready answered that. If everyone believed in Him, He would show Himself to everyone. But why should He show Himself to you? You accuse Him of such atrocities. HOW MUCH EVIDENCE DO YOU NEED? Obviously more than He is willing to give to someone so hard hearted as yourself! If I sent my daughter to die because of your screw ups and then you said that since you didn't see it happen then you don't believe it happened...do you think I would be very willing to go any farther to prove my love for you? He does. He lets you live. He gives you everything that you have. Your inner strength. Your self reliance. Your conscience. Your tallents. Your will to save others. Those all come from Him. He gives you the very breath that you breathe. He should not have to show you any more. And so if you don't want to believe in Him, don't. If you don't want to accept Him, don't. But if you want more eveidence, you will HAVE to give in a little. Or I don't think it will happen. Remember a while back when I said I wasn't 100% sure that you would ever experience God because I didn't know if you would open your heart enough for Him to let you see Him? I meant it. He has given enough. It's your turn. Your move. Your choice. I can't make if for you as much as it pains me. Breaks my heart. Wrenches my gut to hear you say such things as you have said. As I said, it won't happen today...maybe not tomorrow, but someday it is going to hit you. I hope it's not too late when it does. You can't say that you haven't been given plenty of chances. I don't say that to scare you into anything because that would be futile, I know. But it's gonna happen one day, like it or not. You are going to realize that your inner strength alone was not enough to pull you through. It's up to you what circumstances that happens under. And I hope that you're able to tell me about it when it happens.

I apologize for the "rubish" comments...I DO respect your beliefs (everyone's beliefs)...I hope you believe that...and I may have gotten a bit over zelous with my last post...it is hard to explain...as my name implies...I was kind of playing Devil's Advocate with my examples...I just don't see why "god" dosen't simply show himself to me...THEN I would believe...is that too much to ask? Nothing you have said has convinced me he exists...nothing I have seen in this world convinces me...if he would simply prove his existence...then, like you said, ALL THE WORLD would believe...and it would indeed be a better place...I still don't believe...frankly, I never will...

I guess it comes down to the crux of the matter...you guys explain strange events such as miraculous healing as "gods" work...I explain it as the work of the mind, facilitated by someones powerful belief in god (I'll quit putting his name in quotes)...which is certainly NOT to say that someone without such a powerful belief in god could not facilitate a similar miraculous recovery through the power of his or her mind...or a powerful belief in something else...

Again, my apologies for refering to your beliefs as rubish...they are not...I respect them...I simply cannot fathom them...Indeed...I never will.

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CRAZY STUBBORN ATHIEST!

Ok heres what I dont understand about what you just said...You say that a person heals themself through the process of the mind but when someone like my dad was defined by the doctors as DEAD how do you explain that? I mean his heart wasnt pumping therefore his mind is not working either..HE was healed by a much higher power...there is no way he healed himself with his mind. It doesnt make logical sense to me.I dont think that also we walk around and just with our minds heal other people. How do you explain that? It cant come from us is has to come from God..

Erin Grace

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I do. And I apologize for my sarcasm, but it's just that the way you worded it really offended me. I take comments about God very personally...you understand. I accept your apology. Just DON'T LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN!!!!



Okay, I know this isn't going to make an ounce of sense to you...(well, I don't think it will anyway. and even if it does you prolly won't admit it...) but here goes:

Let's go back a little ways when I was talking about how your wife's affection wouldn't mean much to you if she had no choice but to love you. Remember when I said that? Well, this is what I believe...wrong or right. I may be waaaay off here, but this is how I see it.

God has the angels who see Him, speak to Him, worship Him, obey Him. They are not free will creatures. They HAVE to obey Him. And I don't think it's because He threatens them if they don't. And I don't even think it's because they don't have the capacity to make choices. Look at satan. A fallen angel. He made the choice that he wanted to be mightier than God, and it got him banished or however you want to say it. He chose what to do from there. But God is still more powerful, so whatever satan does is under God's control. So back to the thing about angels. I believe that they HAVE to love and obey Him because they have SEEN Him. They have touched Him. They are WITH HIM. I believe that those who have truely SEEN God have no choice but to fall on thier face and from then on be changed. That is why the Bible says that EVERY KNEE WILL BOW AND EVERY TOUNGE CONFESS...because there will come a time when we WILL see Him.
Okay, I don't know if you are still even trying to follow me here, or if you are just rolling your eyes and saying "rubbish" in your mind. Now, this is where the need for true devotion comes in. God wanted to create a world of people who CHOSE to love Him. Who CHOSE to obey Him. Who CHOSE to communicate with Him as you would choose to communicate with the love of your life. Yes, He loves the angles, but they love Him because they have to love Him. And so He created man. He even showed himself to Adam and Eve (but I don't believe that they saw the fullness of His glory). And they did love Him. But they were decieved into thinking that they could be wiser than Him, and they made thier choice. You know the rest of the story.
I still think that God wants us to be able to make the choice whether or not we want to be with Him or not. Just so happens that our only other option is pain and torment and eternal damnation because that is the place in which satan resides. And since He wants us to make the choice, He will not show Himself to everyone, because then the option to believe in Him would be gone, and most would be forced to obey Him out of sheer fear instead of love. And if you think it hurts for someone not to love you because they don't believe in you or know you exist, just think of how much worse it would hurt Him to know that we KNEW for certain He existed and still rejected Him. Let's just say "if" there is a God and "if" He created you intending for you to be His best friend and closest companion, and "if" He gave you the entire world to live in, food to eat, a place of shelter, and all the love you could ever want or need...IF all of that happened (and don't say "well it didn't" because I'm just speaking from as close to your perspective as I can get) So IF it did happen...wouldn't He deserve your love and affection? Wouldn't He be entitled to it? Wouldn't you OWE it to Him? Not to mention the price He paid to buy you back after you rejected Him the first time? IF He really sent the one closest to His heart...His son to die so that you could be with Him again...wouldn't you owe Him that much more? So do you really think He OWES you any kind of proof? Any kind of explination?



Never say never. Remeber what was said LAST time you said never.



Okay...I attempted to ask this question much earlier in our debate, but I never got an answer. If you say that we hold healing powers in our mind, then why can we cure ourselves of certain diseases (ex Cancer) and not others (ex AIDS)? AND, if it is a mind power issue, as Erin asked: How can someone who is allready dead come back? What about infants or babies who have not even been born yet? And very young children? They cannot facilitate anything with thier belief, because they are not developed enough to believe anything...And people in comas. How do some come back and not others? If they are mentally capable of healing themselves with their mind power, then why doesn't everyone pull themselves out of a coma? Surely not everyone who has died of a disease or died in a coma is weak minded. (survival of the fittest?) because I have seen some extraordinarily strong willed, strong minded people die. And how can some people who seem to have no will left to live suddenly pull through, and some who fight so hard don't make it? (natural selection?)


I believe you. Apology accepted. Thank you.



Unless you really want to...remember a while back...the whole silly squash analogy. "Taste and see that the Lord is good" (not like cannibals either. ) I cannot fathom the taste of squash because I have NEVER tasted it. You cannot unfathom it because you HAVE tasted it. I will not ever fathom it if I do not WANT to. It is my choice whether or not I take a bite. If I never want to know what squash tastes like, I don't ever have to find out. You know that it is the most wonderful food ever. Maybe someday I will get curious enough or desparate enough to find out for myself. Maybe not. Maybe I will be so stubborn that even if squash were the last thing on earth left to eat I would still refuse to eat it. I would rather die of starvation.

You can't fathom it right now. Hard as that is for me to understand--accept even--you DONT have any idea. And you don't want to. You are fine. You are happy. You are not hungry right now. Not desparate. And maybe even when the time comes that you are hungry and desparate you still will refuse to accept it. And how sad it would be for your soul to die of starvation when the nourishment was right there in front of you. Free. Yours for the taking.

As I have said before...I don't have all the answers...I simply don't believe that every medical anomoly or miraculous recovery is god's work...there is SO MUCH we don't know about the body and the mind. Who knows whether the brain dies when the heart stops? From what we can tell, that is true...but with all our high tech brain wave measurement techniques, WHOS TO SAY we are not missing something??? I don't deny that a clinically dead individual coming back to life is miraculous...but biological death is another matter...no one comes back from that.
Yes, it is miraculous...god's work...? I think not.

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CRAZY STUBBORN ATHIEST!

DINGDINGDING!!!! You ARE MISSING SOMETHING. The whole point. God.


Ummm...Lazarous, Jesus, the widow's son that Elijah prayed over...um...there are a few more...


Yes. I know so.

I have no answer for those questions...although natural selection is the most logical. Perhaps those that die, choose to die...those that fight so hard, simply give up at the end...or maybe its not in the mind, but in another dimension where spoons are actually present when not observed, but the cat does not exist in even before he is placed in the box, and the tree does make a sound, but one which is heard only by the non-existent ears of certain stubborn athiests...looking for a cat he left in that box...back there where he left his only spoon...that, of course, has disappeared once again...

The squash is real...god is not, [censored], I can never hope to taste his presence...

I cannot believe in that which I do not accept...I cannot accept that which I do not believe. I accept and believe many things...god is not one of them.



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CRAZY STUBBORN ATHIEST!

I will think of something much better to say later. But right now, I just wanna say that YOU ARE EXHASPERATING! CRAAAAAZZZZYYYYYYY SSSSSSSSTTTTTTTUUUUUUUBBBBBBBOOOOOOORRRRRRRNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But just keep in mind...I am twice as stubborn.

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the tYpInG FOOL

Cute! Very cute... But it is easier for you to believe in other dimensions than it is for you to believe something that's been written out for you???

And about natural selection...that imlies that nature selects who goes and who stays, yes? So nature is a supreme force? Is that what you're saying?
[/b]
IS TOOO!!!! IS TOOO!!! I DO!


your loss


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the tYpInG FOOL

The word miraclulous stemming from the word miracle. Miracles don't just happen. Who performs the miracle? Mother nature?

Okay...it's been a crappy night to put it mildly. I will show up to work tomorrow hoarse with sore muscles and swollen eyes from cryin' so much. But I am still soooo excited about what I found today on my lunch break. I read this and I just about honked the horn I was so excited...woulda scared the poor chicks on roller skates and they would've dropped thier tater tots, tho...so I controlled myself. I know I'm not makin much sense yet, but bear with me...
Jim, I know you haven't been around since right after Christmas...how was your holiday season? Well, anyway, enough of that...lemmie get to what excited me so much. I know that you won't get all excited like I did...not many people do...haha. But I do think you will get a teenie kick out of this...maybe it'll make ya smile. So here goes...



Are ya ready for this one?



That settles it for me...the tree exists. God said it, and whether anyone believes it or not...THAT SETTLES IT!
Yea...I know, you're thinkin THAT got ya all excited???

Yes. Yes, it did.

bumping for a friend. Read this one second.