Found this in the old thread and decided to answer...I believe this could be a number of things...first and foremost, it is what most people WANT to believe...[censored], their mind creates this scenario while they are in a coma, or "die" but don't really die...weak, I know, but it is what I believe...if I were to die and come back, I would either not know/remember I was dead, or I would return form a black nothingness...I would love to believe that there is a heaven, and when I die, my soul would dwell in everlasting peace, but I know...deep down at the very core of my being, that this is not true...I choose not to live in a fantasy world (I am not being derogatory towards your beliefs...thats how I percieve it in my mind...). I do not understand the human brain...but I understand it has much more potential than we use...perhaps it is this power that is kicking in...the only afterlife I would even consider believing would be one based on the power of the mind and seperate dimensions as specified in a few quatum mechanical models (incidently, quantum physics has proven with impeccable mathematics the existence of multiple dimensions) this would be the only afterlife I would entertain...and I find it hard to believe. Not the existence of multiple dimensions...but the ability of the mind to travel there in death. Here is a riddle...when a tree falls in the woods, and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a noise? I believe that if nobody is around to here it, then nobody is around to see it and THEN...it dosen't exist...more on that if you are interested.

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Confirmed Non-Believer
Captain of my Soul...
Master of my Ship...

Hey! If a tree fell and I were around to hear it, it most certainly WOULD make a noise!
I know things exist outside of my perception of them, and I think you do to. Your existence does not depend upon my belief in you. As a matter of fact, none of us here can see or hear you... Does that prove you don't exist?
Come on DA, you are smart, I trust you can come up with better logic than that.

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<FONT COLOR="#ffffff" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Nobody on 06-11-2000 @ ]</font>

Thanks Nobody, for answering that question about the tree from personal experience.

That line of thought does lead to an interesting analogy.
DA, have you ever been to Beaumont? Assuming for a moment that you have not, then do you believe it exists? I think you probably do believe that Beaumont exists, even if you have never been here, because you have the testimony of people you trust. Foreverchanged tells you that Beaumont exists from her personal experience, and you believe her. She also tells you that God exists from her personal experience, what's so different about believing that?

I have a friend I would like you to meet, his name is Jesus.

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<FONT COLOR="#ffffff" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Nabi' on 06-11-2000 @ ]</font>

In the famous words of captain kirk: ....oh......never mind. I can't say that here....or anywhere for that matter. It's bad enough that I even thought it. But you exasperate me!!! So if I were to cry, but no one heard me, does that mean that I didn't cry? Or if someone smashed into your car but you weren't there to see it does that mean it didn't happen? Is the tree not still on the ground???? I'm confused... I agree...if I were a non-believer, I would explain the visions the same way...but without all the quantum physic stuff. and stuff. I'm not that smart. But I am smart enough to know that if a tree falls...just because no one is there to see it or hear it happen....oh, never mind. *grumble, mumble under my breath, gripe gripe, grrrr* okay...I AM interested to hear more about that. Just so that I can say how wrong you are of course. I just don't see the logic in that. And I AM insulted that you said I was living in a dream world. I live in the same world you live in...and with that, I'm going to go to sleep mad.

Oh....and what does that have to do with anything anyway...God's not a tree . Okay...so maybe I can't go to bed mad. But I can sure try, darnit!
I just had to tell this story. Not because you will get anything from it, but it sure reminds me of you...

A college professor of psychology was reasoning with his class about why he thought that God did not exist.
Have you ever physically seen Him?
NO.
Have you ever physically heard Him?
NO.
Have you ever physically touched Him with your hands?
NO.
Then logically, He does not exist.
The class was silent. And then a young man in the back row stood to his feet.
Okay, class...have I got a question for you!
Assuming the professor is right with his conclusion:
Have you ever seen the professor's brain?...
Good night all.
Michelle

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the tYpInG FOOL

No, really, please do tell me more about it...I am curious. I just get a little silly after 2am. sorry. But seriously...enlighten me. How can you say that just because no one saw it, it didn't happen? Maybe no one knows that it happened....but. Okay, maybe my brain is just beyond functioning. I'm going to come back tomorrow and maybe you can help me make sense out of it...
luv ya,
Michelle

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the tYpInG FOOL

Good discussion still... forever has answered as well (or better) than I could.

I could say that people that used to be gay say that their lifestyle was a choice, but you would prolly say that they are telling us what we want to hear...

Let me see... if it wasn't a choice, but also wasn't genetic (so we'd both be right), then I'd have to say it was prolly a big dose of girl cooties that changed them in their formative years...

Religion is definitely man-made... God doesn't need to confuse us, we do a right good job well enuf on our own...

ps... somebody's got 300 posts... yaaaaaaayyyyy!! anyways... yea yea yea, forever's got 500 baskillion, but I type with one hand, and one good eye...



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Allen

um....I second that.
good night for real this time.

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the tYpInG FOOL

First: Foreverchanged...don't be insulted by my use of the word fantasy...it describes my outlook, not your beliefs.

Ok...the tree in the woods thing:

This is all based on quantum physics/mechanics. Quantum experiments have proven beyond doubt that atoms change when they are observed...i.e. if we look at them or monitor them, they move differently than if we don't. If you think about it, unless something is directly observed, or monitored somehow, you DO NOT know that it is there. Yes, I know Beoumont Texas is there...not becasue I see it, but because I know others see it and live there. HOWEVER...it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to prove that tree exists UNLESS someone sees it, or someone monitors it some way...that is the key...if it is seen or monitored, the atoms change and form a tree (or bush, rock, etc.)...if it is not observed or monitored...who can say what the atoms are doing in that infintisimal portion of the universe at ANY given time? NO ONE! [censored], the tree DOES NOT EXIST, because it cannot be proven to exist unless the circumstances of it's existence are actually created by observing it at that intance...confusing? Hard to accept? With your beliefs, yes...with mine, it makes perfect sense and is easily accepted. As for it making a noise...I say it isn't even there...but if no ears are there to hear it, the sound waves have nothing to vibrate, [censored], it makes no sound...you may more easily accept that. You believe god created everything, thus you "know" it exists...I do not believe that, [censored], unless something is proven to exist, how do I know it does?

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Confirmed Non-Believer
Captain of my Soul...
Master of my Ship...

I wasn't really insulted...you have to understand how my mind works after 2am. IT DOESNT! And okay...I understand a little bit better now that I read it again. I will argue with you after I get home from church.
Michelle

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the tYpInG FOOL

what about the wind? I can feel it. I can see the effects it has on things. i believe it is the wind, but i have never actually seen wind.


signed me
the nobody

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Ok...you are feeling the wind...in other words...observing by touch...I figured you all would interpolate point...something has to be "seen, smelled, felt (physically), heard, or tasted"..in other words "experienced" in SOME (thus altering the atoms) to be PROVEN to exist...otherwise it simply cannot be PROVEN to exist...I don't have to be the one to do it...thats how I know there is a Beaumont texas...others are there. BUT...I defy ANYONE to prove that there is a tree in the woods without seeing it, filming it or somehow experiencing it...it can't be done...is that so hard to understand or accept? Open your mind...

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Confirmed Non-Believer
Captain of my Soul...
Master of my Ship...

Okay, here goes:
Everything that happens affects someone or something else. Something even as minor as an ant being sqashed...that is one less ant to store food for the colony. Not a big effect, but an effect nontheless. Now...let's go into a hypethetical situation here. One that could relate to you. Lets say that you live near the woods and you have this dog named...ummmmm WALDO! Okay...follow me here....Waldo runs into the woods one day. You can't find him. Waldo is trotting along peeing on trees or whatever it is that dogs do when they are alone in the woods....and one of the trees that he stops at falls on him. (sorry) Waldo dies. No one was there to hear the tree fall (except for Waldo, but he's not talking)... And no one was there to hear Waldo yelp. (not being cruel, just trying to make a point). So is Waldo dead? Well, you don't know because you can't find the tree or the body...but tell your wife you're sorry, cause Waldo ain't coming home. Just because no one else saw it happen...well, it doesn't make poor Waldo any less dead, now does it? That was just something that will directly affect you...that's why I used that...now, don't you think that every time a tree falls, SOMEONE does experience it in some way? Think really hard and WORK WITH ME HERE...You talked about sound waves? Well, animals have a sense of hearing...you talked about sight? Well, animals, bugs...some of them...have a sense of sight. And do you mean to tell me that a tree can fall and no animal or bug will see/experience it? I don't believe you. And what about the plants that it will smash around it? Are they not directly affected by the tree? AND DONT SAY THAT PLANTS AND ANIMALS DONT COUNT. I'm playing by your own rules here: originally posted by you: "How do you reconcile eating meat...killing plants?" You probably know that had nothing to do with the commandment, but you brought it up. And although animals have no souls, they do have senses. No? So what about the bird who lost her nest when the tree fell? What about the eggs that will never hatch. That will could possibly have an indirect effect on anyone...that's one less bird's song that they will wake to. What about the caterpillar that was on the leaf? It is now smashed to smitherenes. That's one butterfly that someone could have enjoyed. See what I'm saying? You won't even know that it has affected you, (or another human being) but it could have. I think I went by the rules here...I didn't see it film it, feel it, experience it...or even necessarily know that it affected anyone else. But it has. It all goes back to my first looong post...right there at the end. Deny the existence of the tree...(but there is someone or something that has been directly or indirectly affected by it)...so therefore it still exists. Did your words change anything? NO...Is Waldo any less dead? You didn't experience anything...feel anything see anything or smell anything as a direct result...but poor Waldo isn't coming back in three days. Did the tree not still make a sound? The sound waves were absorbed by something...bird, deer, rabbit, owl, mole,....was it not seen by SOMETHING? Centipede, monkey (your cousin? ) Did it not directly affect the plant it fell on...a plant that you've never seen but the existence of it has been proven by the lady bug who lived on it...just like I live in Beaumont.....WELL???? A far stretch maybe, but that's what you get when you start getting technical with me. SO !!

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the tYpInG FOOL

oh, yeah...and about things changing when no one is looking at them...do you change when no one is looking at you? Who knows....when I am alone I could morph into....the devil? Just being silly...
Later

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the tYpInG FOOL

On the contrary, I agree whole heartedly...animals DO count...even plants if you want to go that far...the tree exists and is real when it falls for them, but NOT for you or me...here is where the quantum rule of multiple dimensions comes into play...it exists in their dimension...not yours or mine. Hard to comprehend I know, but completely logical (and provable) via quantum mechanics. Believe me...I am not an egg headed wierdo...I simply have an interest in this sort of thing, and to me, it explains alot of things...and it dosen't have to be a tree...go into a room, a "clean" room, devoid of every living thing but you and a completely sterile spoon. There are no mirrors, no one is watching you, just you and the spoon in a sealed, sterile room. Place the spoon on the floor and turn your back to it...now, without observing, smelling, tasting, hearing, or touching that spoon, PROVE that it is still behind you on the floor...IT CAN'T BE DONE! Shroedinger used this example...put a cat in a box, close the box...assuming the cat remains still, and you cannot sense or experience it with any of your 5 senses...prove it is still in the box...again, IMPOSSIBLE! Ah...the joys of quantum mechanics...how about this one...there are instances in the universe where, at times, 2x3 IS NOT EQUAL to 3x2...another point to ponder...

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Confirmed Non-Believer
Captain of my Soul...
Master of my Ship...

OH!!! You're right...I'm wrong. How foolish I've been. It's all clear to me now...the cat in the box...the spoon. I have seen the light! That proves it to me....there is no God....I mean....god. To me, that seems like a really loooong way to get to get around the point that you just cant explain God, and so you don't want to believe that He exists! Try to explain EVERYTHING...and if you can't explain it, then it must not be real. I feel like I'm trapped in the MATRIX here...

We know that now, but if I were to put you in a box...



So what you're telling me here is that when we go to bed at night, our silverware could be tiptoeing around throwing parties for the dishware???? I really want to understand this. My mind is about as open as...well, I'm trying. But come on...just because you cant prove it with words you know it in your mind that spoon is still there. If you put a camera (I know you said no filming, but honestly...the camera is not actually seeing it is it? Maybe I'm wrong...I know that a camera works somewhat like an eye, but not quite) in there....and then you later view the tape..you are seeing something that has allready happened, so how can the fact that you're looking at it change it? Maybe I'm just stupid...I dunno.



So the cat vaporizes as soon as you put it in the box and then as soon as you open it, it materializes once again? Honestly! Do you disappear when no one is looking at you? I know I dont... I can close my eyes, stop breathing, sit very still...so on...and I know I'm still there...That's just illogical! (to me)



Okay...now the math thing...that's when you've just gone too far! Math was my worse subject.

Really, I'm not trying to be sarcastic...I want to understand this. But if you set a spoon on the floor and turn your back you just KNOW the spoon is there. You can't maybe PROVE it with your words, but GEEZE...
Maybe I'm just not catching on here...

No...I don't believe in god, so I choose science and quantum physics to explain what you believe god does...don't be angry...this whole "tree in the woods" thing is a bit off subject anyway...I was simply using those examples as a way of explaining how I look at things. What you may consider a miracle...I would explain with quantum physics...it is a bit alien to you because of your belief in god...that is fine...your belief in god is alien to me. If I can't explain something, then I seek an explanation...it dosen't mean it is not "real"...it just means it is unexplained.
I can't "explain" your belief in god...but it is undeniably real...you said that becasue I couldn't explain god, I didn't want to believe he exists...not true...I simply don't believe he exists...you and many others have been trying to explain god to me during our entire discussion (and doing a good job)...but what you are really explaining is your BELIEFS, and what is written in the bible...MY BELIEF is that no matter how you explain things, no matter what you provide as proof (healing, miracles, the scripture, etc.) my core belief will remain the same...simply because I don't believe in god, or what is written in the bible...I believe that is the crux of the matter...beliefs...

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Confirmed Non-Believer
Captain of my Soul...
Master of my Ship...

I'm not angry....

The whole quantum physics thing is hard for MANY people to accept/understand...I certainly don't understand it all. Logically you are entirely correct...most people "know" the spoon is still there...all I am saying is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to prove it!...once you understand that concept, then many more things start to make sense...I'm not asking you to believe in these theories...just trying to explain my outlook.

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Confirmed Non-Believer
Captain of my Soul...
Master of my Ship...