Two things I just wanna say real quick :

1. We are BORN sinners.
2. I'm not quite talking so much about a physical death as I am spiritual death.

I'll elaborate tomorow when I've had a couple hours of sleep and some coffee.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nobody:
Is God making up the definition of sin as He goes?

Well I see we aren't going to start off slow and work our way up Sin has been defined from the beginning of time as far as I can tell. We as humans just keep pushing the definition to fit our needs. My point being, gravity is gravity know matter what we say and the Law of Relativity is the same no matter if we accept it or not... Now as far as "thou shall not kill" we can take that to the extreme by saying "OK then I will not kill any animal to eat" but I don't think that is what God meant because our bodies need food to operate. But then I could be wrong. You see it's not He who is making it up as He goes it is us (just as children do) pushing the line to see how far we can get away with it until Dad gets mad (or mom -- sorry Forgiven )

Question2 - Isn't death pretty harsh as a punishment for any sin? Shouldn't we be punished according to how bad it is? Being executed for murder is one thing, but should we be executed for talking back to our parents once as a child?

Again, I believe your right God doesn't punish us fairly according to what we do... He is way to lineant. What I mean is that sin to Him is the ultimate disobidience and He forgives us everyday...and sometimes every hour. They all boil down to loving Him more than we love ourselves. Is talking back to our parents that wrong? Maybe not to us, but to God we are saying "look I don't care what you say I'll pick and choose what I will and will not follow." He wants us to give Him everything even the little things that our flesh can't understand in order to start to think on a spiritual realm.


Question3 - If Jesus died for me, why do I need to be a Christian? If my sins are already paid for in advance, why shouldn't I do whatever I want? Why does anyone have to be saved.

If you trully accept Jesus into your life you are saying take over and begin to change me. It doesn't make us perfect all of the sudden. If we take on the mentality that we will just do whatever we want, then I would have to believe that our acceptance of Him was not heartfelt. Remember when you were a child and you did something wrong? I know...I know you're saying no I never did . but I did and there were those times when I was truly sorry and then there were those times when I just said it so I wouldn't get punished. God is looking for the truly repentant. And if we are truly repentant then we will not want to do that which He doesn't want us to.

Does that mean that if we sin we aren't truly repentant... that't between you and God. I won't judge you or anyone on that because only you and He know that answer.

All I know is that I am glad God can see all things in the future and the past and He knows that as good as we can try to live we will still miss His glory... So He sent His only Son to bridge the gap of my inadiquicies. Because of this, if I truly accept Jesus as my personal Lord and savior then I can "Take off the mask and be transformed from glory to glory" and not miss out on Him!!

luv yall

innerdawg


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<FONT COLOR="#ffffff" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by whit-Dawg on 06-05-2000 @ ]</font>

1. probably got to include the scripture that says (paraphrased) If someone knows to do right, and doesn't, to him that is sin...
2. We all have to die, sometime, forever is talking, as she has said, about Spiritual death/ damnation...
3. <FONT size="4"><FONT COLOR="Red">perfect!</FONT c></FONT s>



no... He is pretty specific about what He says regarding "what is sin". Since these are moral dictates, they aren't subject to the whims of changing times. Murder is sin, envy, stealing, etc... all sin...



Hey! good question! This is where "taking responsibility for your own actions" (talked of as something lacking in Christians in the other thread) comes in...

I Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.

We take responsibility for our own actions when we reach "the age of accountability", which some believe is 13, but is probably different for all people. It kinda goes back to "knowin to do right, but not doin it, den dat's sin"...

"talking back to our parents" as a young child may get us a spankin, but I don't think we are riskin Hell for it...

now, where that "line" is exactly, I do not know, but you are pretty safe in saying that murder and rape, and stealing and having idols will get you, if unrepented, a first-class ticket to hades... you are responsible for your actions then, plain and clear...



Jesus paid for our sins in advance, but it is our choice to accept or reject that payment, we are still free-will beings...

I will prolly need to elaborate on these answers more as my brain sleeps on this tonight, but this is fairly close to what my brain is thinking...

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Allen

I see the dawg beat me to the punch, and with better answers...

anyways... mine just adds a little more "color commentary"...

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Allen

OK, I can see some of that. Here's some modifications to my previous clarifications:
1. God didn't make up the rules, He just enforces them.
2. Jesus died to give us an option, but we have to choose it.

Next question - If God didn't make up the rules about what is sin, then where did it come from? If the law exists outside of God's definition of it, then is God Himself bound by the law? Is it possible for Him to break the rules?

Also -- I've asked a lot of people how they got rid of guilt, and I've gotten a lot of answers. Some say you have to do some kind of penance, others that you just have to ask, others that you have to go through certain ceremonies. How do you know? Do you just feel better? Do you start speaking in tongues? Does a priest tell you? Do you just do it once or do you have to do something for every sin you commit? Jesus only died once, don't I owe more than that?

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AWESOME! Great questions....Ill be back in a while.

PS by the way, forever, how can we have been BORN sinners if sin is something we do? Did we sin before we were born?

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Actually, I think Allen already answered that little PS, about being accountable after a certain age.
Just be careful about your quick answers --
Nobody could possibly misunderstand.

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sorry...i saw that allen had already elaborated and so I decided not to...but you are very intellegent. Yes...allen answered it already.

Ummm... hello? You haven't forgotten that there are still questions pending, have you? I hope you are just taking your time to find good answers.

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Ummmm....I don't forget Nobody. I just needed the answer to a question before I could answer yours. Now I have the right answer...(I think...only you know that...)and now I can finish searching for the right way to word your answers...

K, no problem. Just making sure.

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God did make the rules (the law) and He enforces them...


correct...



He did, and sin came from our disobedience...



those are rather odd questions... kinda like is God bigger than the sky? I don't have an answer... maybe because I changed the questions with my first answer...




There is nothing we can do to "earn" our sin away... it is a gift paid for with a high price and given away freely... the guilt is self-imposed... whatever makes us feel better about it is prolly ok, but only after asking forgiveness first.

this is a weak reply, I will sleep on it the next few hours and get back to you...


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Allen

Must be my misunderstanding of the first answers, I thought you said God doesn't just make up the rules. So He does? If He wants everyone saved, why doesn't He just change the rules? Couldn't He have forgiven sins without Jesus having to die?
And what's this about "it's free, you just have to repent"? Doesn't "repent" mean you have to try to stop doing wrong and do whatever God says? Isn't that a cost?

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Nobody, sometimes it may help to forget religious philosophy for a moment and just think of nature. After all, if God made nature then it must show something about Him, right?
Imagine a good father --
he makes rules for his children, don't touch the fire. He made the rule, but he didn't make the consequence. He made the rules to protect them, and changing the rules won't keep them from getting burned.

About the second part - "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." I don't know why, but it must be so for this reason -- do you think God wanted for His son to die? Maybe there are some rules that even God cannot break, not because He isn't strong enough, but because it is His nature. There may or may not have been another way, but I know this for sure -- there was no better way.

Does that make sense to you?

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Oh, and the last part...

Yes, you have to give up a lot, and that is a cost. But compared to the original price tag on sin, it's a real bargain. Jesus died once to give you one free ticket out from the grave. But a free ticket does no good if you refuse to walk through the door.

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Excellent replies Nabi', and welcome, thanks for taking part... I told Nobody my answers were weak...



what nabi' said... it is freely-given, but you do have to change your habits or you aren't sincere and it's worthless - a big difference from freely-given...

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Allen

Hmmm.. interesting analogy, that of the good father. I don't think you came up with that one off the top of your head. Seems like I've heard it before, I just never really thought to apply it that way.

OK, back to the guilt thing for a moment. So most of our little rituals are completely subjective? What I mean is, it doesn't really matter if you do confessions, Hail Marys, baptism, pilgrimiges, etc., the point of all of it is just to make you feel better?
The emphasis so many religions put on those things as part of being forgiven is all misplaced?

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Well first I would like to say Good morning! I can't believe im up this early but i woke up and couldn't go back to sleep! anyways, back to topic. As far as rituals, whose to say what is right or wrong? I think for some it is a way to feel better, but for others they truly are a part of their religion and their spiritual life. Confessions and Hail Mary's im not as familiar with because im not Catholic but I don't see them problem with them. If you go to a priest and trully feel guilty for your sins, then I think its great.Yes we should also go to God with our burdens, but as humans we sometimes need that human relationship, like if you were to tell a best friend a secret. I would go to confession eventhough Im not Catholic but i would also take it to God too. As far as baptism, during Jesus' time it was a form of repentance and the baptism symbolized the cleansing of sin. It still represents that today but baptism is also a public announcement, of sorts, that is saying to everyone that you have dedicated yourself to Christ. Rituals, as Nobody puts them , are great part of spiritual life and for repentance but only when they are sincere and not just an effort to just to feel less guilty about what your doing. Does that explain it more?

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Amber the almighty coffee maker

Very good forgiven, very good.

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- David
- http://www.truckwerks.com/