Okay Nobody. This one is for you. Feel free to ask anything.

welcome nobody (the person, not in general ). we are glad to have you here.

You won't find any great theologians here, but you will find a whole buncha people who are walking the same path that you are... we don't have all the answers to all the questions, but we know Someone who does... there ain't nothin about us extremely special, it's the One living in us that makes the difference.

In short, we may not have every answer to all of your questions, but give us some time and with God's help, we will find them. Ask away...

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Allen

Here's the question copied from the other post...

Gee, is this the one you started just for me? It looks like about the right time.
How do you see who is online?
Anyway, I'll start my questions here since it seems to be a blank slate so far.
First, a couple of basics to start with:
We can assume for this topic one thing --
That God exists. That way we don't repeat the discussion we have going with DA, I'd like to keep that one there.
Assuming that, I'm going to assume that you use the Bible as His communication with us, and that is fine. Just don't start mixing in too many other books and authorities, I don't trust any of them.
Finally, please speak English. Religion has its own language and not everyone is fluent in your dialect. Make yourself understandable to the average person.
Having said that, here's the first question -
Can you explain to me the concept of sin? What it is and what makes it bad? I know that's a bit of a generic question, but I prefer to start with basics.

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Hi nobody...just want you to know that I found ya and I'm working on your question right now...

I guess Nobody's NOT perfect after all...

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cute, cute....

Great. Take your time, I'm not in a hurry.

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In fact, I'm about to go out for dinner. I'll check it out probably late tonight. So don't feel like you have to answer before you eat your next meal.

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okay...i guess you are going by the lenghty posts i tend to make... I will do my best to answer ya...enjoy dinner.

Nobody, I hope I can answer too. My name is innerdawg and it's great to be able to take religion out of a discussion so I figured what the hey...if ya'll will let me?

innerdawg

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'sup Dawgy???

Awe you know just Chillin!!!

Any who, forgiven send me a private message on how to send Private messages because I keep trying to mail you and I can't

thanks


RRRRRffff.... never mind you get the jist

innerdawg

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Okay...simply put (and assuming that there is a God ) Sin is anything that we do that separates us from HIM. I believe that God made us (humans) and gave us free will in hopes that we would love Him and choose to have relationships with Him. But He gave us the choice. Going back to the garden of Eden, (I'm positive you know the story, no?) Adam and Eve, living in close communion with God as they were created to do with specific instructions not to touch that one fruit (knowledge of good and evil) because they would surely die. Satan tricked Eve into eating the fruit by saying that the only reason God forbade the fruit was because He didn't want her to know as much as He did, so she decided that she wanted to be as smart as God (isn't that just like a woman?) and ate of the fruit. As did her husband. And thus, by disobeying their creator, they now had the knowledge that they were bare, (hence the reason why they coverd themselves) and the knowledge that through this SIN (disobedience to God) they had been separated from Him...(hence the reason why they HID from Him). But of course we cant hide from Him because He sees all. He told them that because they chose to sin, they WOULD eventually die. They had polluted the relationship. Made themselves separate. Broken His trust, even. And so there was now a barrier between humans and thier creator. Sin is that barrier. Sin is anything we do to disobey Him...For instance the 10 Commandments. Thou shalt not... Well, If you do a thou shalt not, then you have sinned. And "The wages of sin is DEATH." Romans 6:23. And since the Bible says that "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," Romans 3:23, that means we all deserve death. But fortunately, God had a way to make it so that we would not just die. We could die in the physical, but live with Him eternally in spirit. He sent His Son, Jesus to the world in the flesh so that He could lead a perfect example of what we should do: IJohn 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him and he cannot sin." 2Corinthians 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to BE sin for us".(and I'm sure you've heard this one too--I'm trying to pick the most familiar ones) John 3:17 says: "God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world, through Him, might have everlasting life." Ergo Jesus died on the cross, and doing so, broke the sin barrier between us and God. But it also says that Jesus is the ONLY way. I Timothy 2:5 "For there is One God and one Mediator between God and men, the man Jesus who gave Himself as ransom for ALL." So Sin is what separates us or makes us fall short of God's glory. Did I help at all????

Hi dawg, feel free to jump in.

Ummm... ok that's a start. At least I know what to ask next.
Let me see if I got it straight so far:
1. Sin is doing anything God said not to do
2. Anyone who sins has to die
3. Jesus died so Nobody wouldn't have to

Good so far?
Question - Is God making up the definition of sin as He goes? I mean, if something is only sin because He said not to do it, wouldn't He do better just to not command anything at all? Then nothing would be sin. Why does He make it hard by condemning so much?
Question2 - Isn't death pretty harsh as a punishment for any sin? Shouldn't we be punished according to how bad it is? Being executed for murder is one thing, but should we be executed for talking back to our parents once as a child?
Question3 - If Jesus died for me, why do I need to be a Christian? If my sins are already paid for in advance, why shouldn't I do whatever I want? Why does anyone have to be saved.

That ought to keep you busy for a while...

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Okay...great questions....I'm trying to figure out how to word this... Geeze....feel free to jump in any time and add to what I said guys...I'm not a theologian either!
Nobody...when you walk into a room do people automatically get taller? Ya got us on our toes here...

Please take all the time you need on any question, don't rush and give me half an answer. I'm young, I have many years of life left for finding answers (I hope.) I prefer to wait a little and get the best answer you have.

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Don't worry...a good post isn't a good post unless I think about if for an hour, write it and rewrite in, and take at least 30 minutes to do so...

Sounds like my strategy for Final Exams in college. As I remember I didn't do so well..

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silly me! i forgot the most important thing...I pray about it too....
ps...I aced mine.

okay...so I didn't go to college, but all the final exams that I did take...'cept for math cause I just didn't like it...

Two things I just wanna say real quick :

1. We are BORN sinners.
2. I'm not quite talking so much about a physical death as I am spiritual death.

I'll elaborate tomorow when I've had a couple hours of sleep and some coffee.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nobody:
Is God making up the definition of sin as He goes?

Well I see we aren't going to start off slow and work our way up Sin has been defined from the beginning of time as far as I can tell. We as humans just keep pushing the definition to fit our needs. My point being, gravity is gravity know matter what we say and the Law of Relativity is the same no matter if we accept it or not... Now as far as "thou shall not kill" we can take that to the extreme by saying "OK then I will not kill any animal to eat" but I don't think that is what God meant because our bodies need food to operate. But then I could be wrong. You see it's not He who is making it up as He goes it is us (just as children do) pushing the line to see how far we can get away with it until Dad gets mad (or mom -- sorry Forgiven )

Question2 - Isn't death pretty harsh as a punishment for any sin? Shouldn't we be punished according to how bad it is? Being executed for murder is one thing, but should we be executed for talking back to our parents once as a child?

Again, I believe your right God doesn't punish us fairly according to what we do... He is way to lineant. What I mean is that sin to Him is the ultimate disobidience and He forgives us everyday...and sometimes every hour. They all boil down to loving Him more than we love ourselves. Is talking back to our parents that wrong? Maybe not to us, but to God we are saying "look I don't care what you say I'll pick and choose what I will and will not follow." He wants us to give Him everything even the little things that our flesh can't understand in order to start to think on a spiritual realm.


Question3 - If Jesus died for me, why do I need to be a Christian? If my sins are already paid for in advance, why shouldn't I do whatever I want? Why does anyone have to be saved.

If you trully accept Jesus into your life you are saying take over and begin to change me. It doesn't make us perfect all of the sudden. If we take on the mentality that we will just do whatever we want, then I would have to believe that our acceptance of Him was not heartfelt. Remember when you were a child and you did something wrong? I know...I know you're saying no I never did . but I did and there were those times when I was truly sorry and then there were those times when I just said it so I wouldn't get punished. God is looking for the truly repentant. And if we are truly repentant then we will not want to do that which He doesn't want us to.

Does that mean that if we sin we aren't truly repentant... that't between you and God. I won't judge you or anyone on that because only you and He know that answer.

All I know is that I am glad God can see all things in the future and the past and He knows that as good as we can try to live we will still miss His glory... So He sent His only Son to bridge the gap of my inadiquicies. Because of this, if I truly accept Jesus as my personal Lord and savior then I can "Take off the mask and be transformed from glory to glory" and not miss out on Him!!

luv yall

innerdawg


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<FONT COLOR="#ffffff" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by whit-Dawg on 06-05-2000 @ ]</font>

1. probably got to include the scripture that says (paraphrased) If someone knows to do right, and doesn't, to him that is sin...
2. We all have to die, sometime, forever is talking, as she has said, about Spiritual death/ damnation...
3. <FONT size="4"><FONT COLOR="Red">perfect!</FONT c></FONT s>



no... He is pretty specific about what He says regarding "what is sin". Since these are moral dictates, they aren't subject to the whims of changing times. Murder is sin, envy, stealing, etc... all sin...



Hey! good question! This is where "taking responsibility for your own actions" (talked of as something lacking in Christians in the other thread) comes in...

I Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.

We take responsibility for our own actions when we reach "the age of accountability", which some believe is 13, but is probably different for all people. It kinda goes back to "knowin to do right, but not doin it, den dat's sin"...

"talking back to our parents" as a young child may get us a spankin, but I don't think we are riskin Hell for it...

now, where that "line" is exactly, I do not know, but you are pretty safe in saying that murder and rape, and stealing and having idols will get you, if unrepented, a first-class ticket to hades... you are responsible for your actions then, plain and clear...



Jesus paid for our sins in advance, but it is our choice to accept or reject that payment, we are still free-will beings...

I will prolly need to elaborate on these answers more as my brain sleeps on this tonight, but this is fairly close to what my brain is thinking...

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Allen

I see the dawg beat me to the punch, and with better answers...

anyways... mine just adds a little more "color commentary"...

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Allen

OK, I can see some of that. Here's some modifications to my previous clarifications:
1. God didn't make up the rules, He just enforces them.
2. Jesus died to give us an option, but we have to choose it.

Next question - If God didn't make up the rules about what is sin, then where did it come from? If the law exists outside of God's definition of it, then is God Himself bound by the law? Is it possible for Him to break the rules?

Also -- I've asked a lot of people how they got rid of guilt, and I've gotten a lot of answers. Some say you have to do some kind of penance, others that you just have to ask, others that you have to go through certain ceremonies. How do you know? Do you just feel better? Do you start speaking in tongues? Does a priest tell you? Do you just do it once or do you have to do something for every sin you commit? Jesus only died once, don't I owe more than that?

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AWESOME! Great questions....Ill be back in a while.

PS by the way, forever, how can we have been BORN sinners if sin is something we do? Did we sin before we were born?

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Actually, I think Allen already answered that little PS, about being accountable after a certain age.
Just be careful about your quick answers --
Nobody could possibly misunderstand.

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sorry...i saw that allen had already elaborated and so I decided not to...but you are very intellegent. Yes...allen answered it already.

Ummm... hello? You haven't forgotten that there are still questions pending, have you? I hope you are just taking your time to find good answers.

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Ummmm....I don't forget Nobody. I just needed the answer to a question before I could answer yours. Now I have the right answer...(I think...only you know that...)and now I can finish searching for the right way to word your answers...

K, no problem. Just making sure.

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God did make the rules (the law) and He enforces them...


correct...



He did, and sin came from our disobedience...



those are rather odd questions... kinda like is God bigger than the sky? I don't have an answer... maybe because I changed the questions with my first answer...




There is nothing we can do to "earn" our sin away... it is a gift paid for with a high price and given away freely... the guilt is self-imposed... whatever makes us feel better about it is prolly ok, but only after asking forgiveness first.

this is a weak reply, I will sleep on it the next few hours and get back to you...


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Allen

Must be my misunderstanding of the first answers, I thought you said God doesn't just make up the rules. So He does? If He wants everyone saved, why doesn't He just change the rules? Couldn't He have forgiven sins without Jesus having to die?
And what's this about "it's free, you just have to repent"? Doesn't "repent" mean you have to try to stop doing wrong and do whatever God says? Isn't that a cost?

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Nobody, sometimes it may help to forget religious philosophy for a moment and just think of nature. After all, if God made nature then it must show something about Him, right?
Imagine a good father --
he makes rules for his children, don't touch the fire. He made the rule, but he didn't make the consequence. He made the rules to protect them, and changing the rules won't keep them from getting burned.

About the second part - "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." I don't know why, but it must be so for this reason -- do you think God wanted for His son to die? Maybe there are some rules that even God cannot break, not because He isn't strong enough, but because it is His nature. There may or may not have been another way, but I know this for sure -- there was no better way.

Does that make sense to you?

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Oh, and the last part...

Yes, you have to give up a lot, and that is a cost. But compared to the original price tag on sin, it's a real bargain. Jesus died once to give you one free ticket out from the grave. But a free ticket does no good if you refuse to walk through the door.

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Excellent replies Nabi', and welcome, thanks for taking part... I told Nobody my answers were weak...



what nabi' said... it is freely-given, but you do have to change your habits or you aren't sincere and it's worthless - a big difference from freely-given...

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Allen

Hmmm.. interesting analogy, that of the good father. I don't think you came up with that one off the top of your head. Seems like I've heard it before, I just never really thought to apply it that way.

OK, back to the guilt thing for a moment. So most of our little rituals are completely subjective? What I mean is, it doesn't really matter if you do confessions, Hail Marys, baptism, pilgrimiges, etc., the point of all of it is just to make you feel better?
The emphasis so many religions put on those things as part of being forgiven is all misplaced?

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Well first I would like to say Good morning! I can't believe im up this early but i woke up and couldn't go back to sleep! anyways, back to topic. As far as rituals, whose to say what is right or wrong? I think for some it is a way to feel better, but for others they truly are a part of their religion and their spiritual life. Confessions and Hail Mary's im not as familiar with because im not Catholic but I don't see them problem with them. If you go to a priest and trully feel guilty for your sins, then I think its great.Yes we should also go to God with our burdens, but as humans we sometimes need that human relationship, like if you were to tell a best friend a secret. I would go to confession eventhough Im not Catholic but i would also take it to God too. As far as baptism, during Jesus' time it was a form of repentance and the baptism symbolized the cleansing of sin. It still represents that today but baptism is also a public announcement, of sorts, that is saying to everyone that you have dedicated yourself to Christ. Rituals, as Nobody puts them , are great part of spiritual life and for repentance but only when they are sincere and not just an effort to just to feel less guilty about what your doing. Does that explain it more?

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Amber the almighty coffee maker

Very good forgiven, very good.

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- David
- http://www.truckwerks.com/

Amber, I used to glance at your signature and think it said all night coffee maker...

Clarification, please... Do you mean that it IS just to make you feel better, but it works best if you don't know that?
Is any part of it really necessary?
Seems strange that a lot of what is supposed to relieve guilt, instead often increases it. If you don't do this then you are a bad person and haven't really repented... etc.

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I have said this before...I don't pretend to understand all different religions...and alot of that has to do with what religion you are. I am Christian, that is that. And I go by the verse I quoted before in an earlier post that (paraphrased) says that there is only one way to Heaven, and that is through Jesus Christ and the blood that he shed for the remission of our sins. Yes, it may make people feel better to talk about it to a priest or to do pennace, but it is not necessary.

I have to laugh at what you said about my signature . When I first typed it I forgot to put the y at the end of almighty so that's probably why it looked like that. ok, back to topic. No, it isn't just a way to make yourself feel better. What I meant by that is many people use that as a way to make themselves feel better for what their doing. They may go to confession but still keep on sinning because they figure they can get pardoned for those sins with the Hail mary's, pilgrimages, etc. and that relieves the guilt. I mean this in reference to those who don't have any devout beliefs, or religion, or maybe those who just claim they do without sincerity. Do you see what I mean? I wish I could talk to you in person because Im much better at explaining things that way . As far as the baptism, it is a physical representation of repentace, but It's not something you have to do everytime you want to be cleansed of guilt. if that were the case, all of use would be getting dunked in water everyday . You can be baptized more than once, but It isn't something you have to do all the time. Like I said it's also a public announcment proclaiming you faith. Are any of them necessary? No, you don't have to go to confessions, recieve hail marys, etc. Baptisms are not necessary, but they are standard and usually most people are baptized when they tell people that they have accepted Christ.It's exciting for them and everyone around them. The baptism is like sealing the deal. .."here I am, I want everyone to know that I have put my faith in God and Jesus Christ." I use to go to a Baptist church, so I know these things . Basically what I saying is that they aren't necessary for repentance, but they are just part of different beliefs. But when it all comes down to it, God the Father is the one you should always turn to for anything, whether its repentance or just to talk .

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Amber the almighty coffee maker

hmmm - ok, well then explain Acts 2:37-38:


there are churches ( I am thinking UPC right now) who say that you must be baptized (& in Jesus' name, to boot) or you really aren't "saved". What do you think about that?

I realize this is kinda off-topic, but does fit in with the immediate discussion.

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- David
- http://www.truckwerks.com/

What do you get if you go in my pockets and take out both pennies?... My two cents...

well here is my two cents on the issues discussed...

Acts2:37-38

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

37
When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It says that they were cut to the heart. What Peter was telling them was if you are "trully" sorry or "cut to the heart" then repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ.

We all know that there are times in our lives when we are trully sorry for something and then there are times when we are just sorry we were caught. Can I get an AMEN!!

Yes there are those who will go to confession because it looks good socially or they will get baptised in order to parade to their friends that they are a good churcher. And this will continue to happen, unfortunately, until the end of time. BUT, that's not our concern-- that's between them and God!!

We need to love them in spite of what we believe or not about their scincerity because we do not know exactly what is going on in their hearts...only God knows. The Bible tells us that they (those who do it for show) have already received their reward on earth. Meaning that if they are doing it to let people see them then that's all they get. If you look at it that way it kinda makes you feel sorry for them because they are missing the true reward which is the glory God gives them in Heaven.

I guess what I mean is this... Let them walk thier own walk and concentrate on your own. If you have done something that you know has displeased God then go to Him in secret and tell Him with a true heart--not just to hear yourself sound good to yourself--but really humbly and ask for His forgiveness.

After that depending on your walk... determine how far you strayed from Him or more importantly how much more you want to be held accountable and from that you can decide wether or not to be baptised. Baptism is simply the death of the old and the rebirth of the new.

Just something to think about...Christ who never sinned first got baptised before He started His ministry.

Just be real to that which you feel you owe God and do not worry about others and if they are doing it to feel good or to excuse their own living...THAT'S BETWEEN THEM AND GOD!

innerdawg


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<FONT COLOR="#ffffff" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by whit-Dawg on 06-08-2000 @ ]</font>

Well said!

Whoah, wait, slow down.... either it's turning into shop talk, or I'm just slow.
I want to understand this baptism point that David brought up, but I think I'm confused on what everyone else is saying about it. I know this is can't be it, but let me share what I'm seeing in my muddled brain so maybe you will see my misunderstanding and explain it in English... or Spanish for that matter.

Yikes! Hafta go... Just hang on to that thought, I'll come back for more tonight...

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OK, well maybe I was wrong about the baptism thing. I was going with my notion that it wasn't necessary cause that's how i've honestly thought. next time I'll make sure to back up what Im saying . thank you David for pointing that out.

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Amber the almighty coffee maker

OK, here's the deal... it has to be one way or the other doesn't it?
Sorry whit-dawg, but I have to pick on you because I had the most problem seeing your position clearly...






Was Peter speaking from God? He said for the forgiveness of sins, don't we all need that?
He said Repent and be baptised -- was half of that sentence a command and the other half an option?

I can understand that some things may have been tradition, but how do you decide which was which? Do you obey all the commands in the New Testament or just do whichever you feel like?

Sorry dawg, don't mean to pick on you personally, I just want to understand how you know what is true and what is made up.

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First I want to say to you, Nobody, that you have the beginnings of the right attitude at least. You will never be finished finding truth, and I hope you never stop finding more.
One of the most important things I have learned is that you should not trust ANY human being, because we all are wrong sometimes. Don't trust your own feelings, because they can change every minute and can be manipulated. Your feelings and other people can help, but none of us are absolute.
How do you know? Trust God. He is the only one who is always right. And He has given clear instructions for everything we need. You are right, it doesn't make sense to pick and choose small parts of the Bible to obey. Either it is God's word or it isn't. If it is, obey every command given to Christians (this assumes you know the difference between the Old and New Testaments, that's another study). If it isn't, then it is all optional. You just have to figure out who the Master is, then surrender your will to that Master. I'll give you a hint -- no man on earth today is the Master.
Dawg is right about the need for sincerity, God knows the difference.
Don't take my word for it, take His Word.

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And if you ever DO decide to trust the Bible as God's truth, then here is an interesting way to study salvation.
The first is long, but worthwhile -- find every command in the New Testament related to salvation. Here are a few to start with:

Mark 16:16 -- believe and be baptised...
Do you really have to believe?

Acts 2:38 -- repent and be baptised...
Do you really have to repent?

Romans 6:2-4 -- die to sin and be baptised...
Do you really have to die to sin?

Romans 10:9 -- confess with your mouth...believe with your heart..
Do you have to both confess and believe? Does this verse mean you don't have to repent?

I Corinthians 12:13 -- by one Spirit we were all baptised...
Do we have to have the one Spirit?

Galatians 3:26-27 -- sons of God through faith... baptised into Christ...
Do you have to have faith?

I Peter 3:21 -- baptism now saves you...an appeal to God for a good conscience...
What is a good conscience if not one that is free from guilt?

A shorter but equally interesting study is to go through Acts and find every example of a conversion, and notice what took place each time.

Romans chapters 5 and 6 is not for the faint of heart, but it is a detailed religious treatise on sin and grace. Save that one for last and get plenty of sleep first.

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That's a lot of information to digest...
I think I'm going to take my time going over what I have so far before I ask any more questions.
Feel free to add more, meanwhile I'm going to just read for a while. Maybe I'll get to all those verses, and review everything that has been said in this and other topics.
Thanks to everyone, from Nobody...

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Nobody, no offense taken... Again these are only my thoughts and who am I?... I'm just a man walking a walk too.

But, here's how I look at it. When I was baptised in Pensicola FL, I made a public declaration that I was repenting (with a scincere heart) for my past transgressions. In other words, I realized that the life I was living was not for God and I wanted to give Him everything. After that, unfortunately I still sin everyday. But, it doesn't mean that my life has gone back to the old Dawg I was.

I now live everyday in pursuit of the life He has chosen for me-- the life the "new Dawg" proclaimed he would strive for when I came out of the water that day at the beach. I live under the grace that He gives me because without His grace I have nothing. This grace is given because He knows that I will mess up everyday...yet I still strive to live the life worthy to be called His own.

Baptised everytime... I don't know. But, if I was to be baptised everytime I messed up, I would spend my whole life wet instead of proclaiming His Name.

Just a thought.

innerdawg


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