Okay, let's be reasonable. If you feel like you don't have a reason for being here, then why would you risk your life to rescue ONE PERSON? Where does your respect for human life come from? From YOU? From your conscience? WHAT IS YOUR CONSCIENCE? That still small voice inside? Just a thought...
I am here for a reason. And that is to love my God. And to make sure that He gets what He deserves. And I am sooooo self centered and egotistical that if I thought for one minute that I could guarantee that you would have a complete change of heart by dying, I WOULD DO IT. That is what MY JESUS is about. Except He's better than me. He had no guarantee. He just died so that WE COULD have a relationship with our Father in Heaven.


YES.

[/b]

"In the beginning there WAS GOD." (would you like the scripture reference?



Do you not feel the need to be accepted? Everyone needs companionship. You can't say it's not true. Why are you married if you don't feel the need for companionship?



He did. It's called HEAVEN. The angels. They have no choice. Would your wife's devotion mean anything to you if she had no choice but to love you? So he gave us the choice. And we screwed up.



I live life to the fullest. I have a beautiful daughter. A family and friends that I love. I have fun. I like to swim, go fishing, play volleyball, have slumber parties, go to the movies, etc. And I can do that and LOVE GOD which is the reason I was put HERE.



I'm sorry too.


All of that was fortold in the Bible. It went wrong when WE went wrong.

And what of questions 1-6 on page four? In all fairness, we did try to answer yours...what's so thought provoking about being able to select which questions to answer. If you are so sure that He doesn't exist, then you would be able to PROVE IT. Or at least make a VALLIANT effort without getting quite so confrontaional. Your post proves that you are angry. What are you so angry about, Jim? Why do you hate God?

Of course I suffer too. Just because I trust Him doesn't mean that I no longer make rash decisions....gimme a break! I'm HUMAN. And it is HUMAN nature to screw up. I make hasty decisions without consulting Him first sometimes, and as a result, I suffer. But He does help me. He encourages me (did you read my stories? They were true.) He loves me.
Also as forgiven put it, sometimes we disobey God too. Again, I love Him and trust Him...but I am human... and sometimes, I screw up. But the cool thing about it is that He is forgiving. And ALL I HAVE TO DO IS ASK. I am His child. You don't expect perfection from your children. Just love and obedience. And you love them even when they disobey. You discipline them one way or the other...usually by letting them suffer the consequences of thier mistakes, then you tell them you love them and forgive them.
And yes, unfortunately, we sometimes suffer as a result of others bad decisions. And again, as forgiven put it, it makes us stronger. Not only that, but it gives us that experience. So that later down the line when I see someone who is in the same situation that I was in, I can maybe help them through it. Or at least be living proof that they will survive it. Does that help at all?

I do not mean to be confrontational, nor do I mean to infer that forever is egotistical...I simply used that somewhat confrontational language to try to make my point. I do respect all of you for your beliefs...I even admire it, I just will not bring myself to believe it myself...it is ingrained in my "pea-brain" that there is no god...no guidance, no "reason" for being here. I risk my life to save other lives because I have chosen to...even though I do not believe in god, I believe in the value of life...If I die tomorrow, I can truthfully say I have saved lives (in the physical sense, not spiritual)...that is good enough for me. It is not what I was put here to do...it is WHAT I do...I jump from airplanes, at night, with a rucksack, oxygen, rifle, and LBE from altitudes up to 35,000 ft...I am scared and wired at the same time...I don't pray to god to help me pull my ripcord, I concentrate...remain alert, and focus on the task at hand...many of my buddies DO pray to god...that is fine. If, in their mind, that helps them, then I am more than OK with that. Ok, enough of that...you are right, forever, I do owe you some answers to your previous questions...I will try my best.
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1.Although I know that you can dismiss the Bible as some made up book of fairy tales by some wacko with a sick sense of humor, but how do you explain the evidence that they have found to support the Bible? i.e. pieces of the ark...stuff like that.
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Pieces of the arc, or pieces of an ancient ship of the sea, sailed by our early ancestors, who evolved from monkeys? Prove it came from the arc...
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2.You say that if you were healed of cancer you would chalk it up to willpower or something? You must have some awful lot of confidence in yoursef! Why does anyone get sick then? if it is as you say, then why can't everyone heal themselves? Why can people recover from cancer and not aids?
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Yes, I do have alot of confidence...I have to with what I do...those that don't, don't make it. People get sick because that is the way it is. I rarely get sick, for not other reason (I believe) except that I keep myself in shape. Look at humans today...obese, smoking, eating crap...they don't have the WILLPOWER to eat right and exercise...gods fault? NO theirs!
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3.By what code of conduct should everyone respect everyone's belief? You mentioned the constitution. The constitution says that you have the right to your own religion (or lack thereof) Who says I have to respect it? You?
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In the military we have a code of conduct that states (in part) "I shall believe in my country and my god"...I don't believe in god, so I go with the "country" part. I simply believe that common sense dictates that we should all respect each other...that would solve alot of problems. I didn't say you HAD to respect my religion or lack of belief...I said you SHOULD respect it...big difference. I could care less if you respect me or my beliefs...don't force yours on me (and you are not doing that...which I respect!).
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4. Where does your conscience come from?
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Very good question...my theory is it is an accident...seriously, I have no idea...it is how the neurons and cells of the brain work...many people don't seem to have a conscience...why not????
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5. Are you even going to attempt to explain the fact that God has spoken to me through His word? (and may I add answered my questions to precicely...) If there is no God, then what the heck am I hearing?
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You believe god has spoken to you...in your mind that is true...the mind is a powerful thing...is it so hard to grasp that you may be solving your own problems without the help of god? No one knows how the brain works...we use maybe 10% of it's power...you may be one of the lucky few that use 15%...
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6. How do you explain prophecy (people who see into the future)....not the phony ones. Who is speaking to them if there is no God and no Satan?
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I have never seen a documented, scientifically proven case of profecy...I could be wrong, but I haven't seen it. If they have, why aren't their abilities exploited to save lives? Get people out of Kobe Japan before the earthquake happened, warn the people in OK city before the bomb went off? Come on...! A rule of quantum physics states that the only way to predict the future is to predict the location of EVERY atom in the universe at a given moment...simply impossible.
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Those are my answers...I hope they help (at least a little) to show you my point of view...I respect you foreverchanged...you seem like a kind and loving person...I would welcome you as a friend...but you will not change me...its not in my genes...those genes that developed from the apes...


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Satan Lives...God Sucks

and you don't have a pea-brain...

unless you REALLY think that I am one of the lucky ones who uses 15% of mine...

What are you saving people from? They are all going to die anyway, what's the point?
Wouldn't it be just as "good" to save mosquitos? After all, mosquitos are people too. What makes one random collection of atoms more valuable than another?

Umm.. ok, naturally I don't quite think that way. But the question is, why don't I? Why doesn't everybody? Survival of the fittest and all that -- let the weak die to make room for the strong.
DA It is your life, why give it away for the sake of electrified slimeballs? I admire you for it... why?

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Good morning everybody...
Just a small note on that prophecy thing, because prophecy fascinates me.

DA, apparently you have studied different prophecies than I have, because you seem more certain of them not being true.
There are many places in the Old Testament, the Jewish Bible, that talk about things that could not have happened yet when the book was written. Some of it is unsure because there is a question about the actual date of the book, but some of it is obvious.
Isaiah 44:28 "Thus says the Lord to Cyrus his annointed... he declares of Jerusalem, 'She will be built' And of the temple 'Your foundation will be laid.'"
When Isaiah was written, Jerusalem hadn't even been destroyed yet, and there was no one named Cyrus. People will say this was added later, well maybe... it's hard to prove with something that old. But we know for sure the prophecies about Jesus were not added later.

There are two problems I see with prophecy, reasons it hasn't been used to save lives:

1. The prophet never gets to choose what he knows. Sometimes he doesn't even understand his own words.

OK, that means maybe it comes from God, why doesn't God tell them things that will save lives?

2. People have never believed prophecy until after the fact. Prophecy has never been able to change the future, because people don't know which prophecy is true until it is too late.

Example: Read the story of Micaiah in I Kings 22 -- All the other prophets lied, telling the king to go to war. Micaiah spoke from God and said he would die. The king chose to believe the wrong prophets, so he went to war and died. If he hadn't gone to war, then the prophecy wouldn't have been true anyway...
The only time I know of when a prophecy was believed in time was when Jesus prophecied the destruction of Jerusalem (seems to have happened a lot) in Matthew 24:1-22. When the Roman army surrounded Jerusalem to destroy it, christians who knew the prophecy tried to get out. At the last minute the armies pulled back, giving the christians time to escape, then they gathered again to finish the job. The christians believed the prophecy, and their lives were saved. Others didn't, and they died.

Just a thought. I guess my note wasn't small after all...

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I don't understand the question Nobody...electrified slimeballs? Explain and I will answer...

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Satan Lives...God Sucks

I could argue with all your points, but I guess there's no sense in going around in circles...is there? So I will let you have the last word on that subject. Except for to say that your conscience is not an accident. All people have "conscience". Some just don't listen AT ALL. And when you go so long with your ears plugged (so to speak) it gets hard to hear anything at all. And there are some who listen, but they pick and choose what advice to follow and what advice not to follow. (because they think...hey, it's just my conscience, right? It's coming from within me...) Wrong. How could tha be an accident? Honestly, Jim...if we evolved from a strange set of circumstances, then why are we still not evolving? Why do we seem to get more violent and not really any smarter or more complex? Yes, we are evolving technologicaly because we build off of each others studies. But why, if we evolved from the bottom up, are we not getting any closer to the top? I have seen people who have sickness who have VERY strong wills to survive. People who took good care of themselves and still got sick. And they could do nothing to save themselves. Why is that? Are you saying that you are superior? Why?

OK... I miss a day and I miss some more good stuff. Thank you for staying around DA and Nobody, this discussion, as I have said, is good for all of us. I will try to answer some of your questions myself, but forever really has been doing an excellent job.



If you believe in the value of life, then why do you risk yours if this is all there is to it? I mean, if this is the only chance you have to live, if this is your one shot at being, then why risk it to save someone who decided to do whatever they did to need rescuing? I can understand that you might do it for the thrills and the challenge, but why do you do it to save lives?
I have worked as a NICU/ER nurse for ~15 years. I have "saved" hundreds of lives "physically" by my actions, tho not with the danger that you do to do it. If you value life, but know that you only have this one life to live then it's over, why do you risk it for others that made choices that prolly should have ended their own life? There are many professions that save lives but do not have as much risk involved as "jumping from airplanes, at night, with a rucksack, oxygen, rifle, and LBE from altitudes up to 35,000 ft..."? I think it's cool that you do... I have a nephew that was stationed over there doing the same thing, but he believed there is something more to strive for, that should he lose this life, there is something waiting for him past this.
I donated bone marrow this past January to a little girl that I have never met, know nothing about, who needed it because of her leukemia. The surgery did involve some risks, I had to sign a waiver saying that I might die during the surgery from the anesthesia. I did it because it might save the life of that little 8 year old. I knew that had I died, there is a better place for me, it was a chance that I willingly took... I value life too.



I don't happen to have the pieces here with me , but they were found on the top of Mt. Ararat, under a lot of ice, where the bible said they would be found. There have been several documentaries on "The Discovery" channel going over this... it pretty much would have been impossible during Noah's days to have built/ carried a ship of that size to the top of Mt. Ararat, how did it get there?




I pretty much agree with you there, 'cept that I would have typed: God's fault?
I don't understand why people get sick either, most of it can be attributed to their choice in lifestyle, diet, etc...
I do not pretend to understand why some are healed and others aren't either... I, myself, was healed as a junior in high school from torn cartilage in my knee... medically verified with dye-injected into my knee joint and a small scope inserted to view it, (before and after the healing), the doctor couldn't explain it, but what was there (a significant tear), wasn't anymore, and the only difference was that I was prayed for at church one night. It wasn't my brain power that did it, cuz I was sure I was gonna have to have surgery, but it was my mustard-seed size faith combined with a few hundred other mustard seed sized faiths in that room that night.



come on now, should we or not? You tell us we should respect your beliefs, then say you don't care if we do... you do care if we do if you tell us we should...



eureeka! yes! we don't know all the answers! cool! that is the first step to gaining knowledge...
it isn't an accident that you have a conscience, we all do, some may bury theirs tho in order to gain some temporary benefit from animal-like behavior. Seriously, our "conscience" (we like to call it our "soul") is what seperates us from the animals, it is what tweaks us to choose right from wrong, to "value human life".



the probability of her landing on all those verses that matched her situation by chance (which is what would have had to happen - her brain power couldn't have done it, unless she had already memorized the entire bible) is so infinitesimally small, she should be out buying lottery tickets...

About the prophecy... what Nobody said...

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Allen

Okay...so I guess I said more than I thought I was gonna say...once I start it's kinda hard to stop...

foreverchanged

Royal Guard

Posts: 430

I should say so!







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Allen

I guess Allen actually explained my question better than I did...
I just like to have a reason for everything I do, and I like to know the reason for what other people do.
My question is this -- Why do you risk your life for others? Does that give you any benefit? Does it even give them any benefit?
If they are suffering, then the longer they live on earth, the more they will suffer. By saving a life, you are just prolonging the pain. So why do you do it?

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Oh yes, the second part...

I think you are doing a wonderful thing...
Why do I think that? (I guess I can't expect you to answer questions about me, it's just a thought.)
Why should what you do be a wonderful thing? (See my previous question.)

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PS Electrified slimeballs was a reference to Evolution, we are just slime moved by electric impulses...
Nobody likes to be sarcastic.
The point was why is anybody worth anything?

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Wow...

For one...just because I believe you should respect my beliefs, doesn't mean I care if you do or not! In my mind, we should all respect other's beliefs...whether you do or not is your business.


To me...the probability that god talked to her is just as ifinitesimally small...but she believes it was god so that is ok...I call it chance...like it or not.


You call it "healed" indicating (I think) that god has a hand in it...I would refer to it as being cured, or, perhaps, fixed...either way, its not god...I don't know why some get sick and some don't either...regardless of their lifestyle...its all in the genes, lifestyle, and (frankly) dumb luck.


Do you really believe that that same arc carried 2 of EVERY LIVING CREATURE within it's holds??????????? Please be realistic...IMPOSSIBLE...and from what I remember of those documentaries...they could not prove it was the arc...


I deal with this question all the time...that fact is there aren't enough people willing to risk ANYTHING for others...let alone their life. My primary job is combat rescue...I do it for my country...I do it for you and your family so they can live happy, comfortable lives...I choose to do this because it is what I love. It dosen't matter whether a pilot was shot down, or a drunken idiot crashed his boat...a life is a life. Adrenalin is a factor, but risking one's own life to save another is, in my book, the most noble thing any single human can do...THAT is why I do it. I don't do it for god, I do it because it needs to be done...and there are too few people in this world with the fortitude to do what needs to be done. You believe in god and yet you question my motivations for doing a noble act? As a "believer" you, of all people should understand (especially as an ER nurse/bone marrow donor)!! I believe that there IS NO VALUE in life unless it is put at risk, with courage and determination for a noble cause...mine is saving lives at the risk of my own...it is other things to other people...FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE don't want to risk jack squat, but want to garner all the benefits of a "risk free" existence...too many people want guys like me to risk it all...so that they may be comfortable and safe...to me...that is the greatest "sin" of all...and more to the point...the greatest WASTE of all.

I have rambled on long enough...my motivations and beliefs may seem strange but it is what I believe...I respect every god fearing human on the face of the earth...I simply don't believe in a "god" myself...none of you will ever change that...don't feel sorry or sad for me...that is my choice and I am truly happy with my life.

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Satan Lives...God Sucks

And please remember the sacrifices of those brave men involved in the D-Day invasion...56 years ago today...



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Satan Lives...God Sucks

We'll thank God for them.

Hello Devil's Advocate,
I would like to introduce myself. I am a licensed minister and a pastor of college age folks at a local church. I greet you in the name of Jesus the Christ.

I can clearly see that you are fully persuaded in your agnostic belief. Sir, you have asked many thought provoking questions that have been "combatted" equally well.

Many of the answers given were not complete, though. It would truly take a life time to answer all of these questions. We are all in search of absolute truth... just as you are. Why else would you be here? I have to believe that you have better things to do with your time than to quiz Christians.

I'll shed a little light on your darkness and share some, but I have every intention of keeping this short.

Prophecy in definition is a prediction of the future. Why would some base their life on prophecy? It's a prediction. In hindsight, we see the prophet(s) accuracy. I do challenge you sir to find any prophecy that has come into fruition that is not totally accurate with the Bible. Did you know that the Bible prophesied that America would be the first on the moon? We are not to base our lives on prophesy, but rather stand in awe of an all knowing, omnipotent Father (that's God by the way...sorry, I know Him personally and often refer to Him as Daddy and Father and stuff like that).

According to your precious scientist... (specifically the father of evolution, Charles Darwin) He RENOUNCED his own theory upon his death bed. Why is it that we continue in it? Because man has always looked for the easy way out. Jesus didn't-- and His followers are taught not to either. He told them to pick up their cross... A carrying a cross doesn't sound like a cop out religion to me.

As for the Ark, the Bible does not say that it was full grown animals in the ark; so w/ the dimensions the Bible gives it is scientifically POSSIBLE that all land dwelling creatures were in the Ark. Note, today we do have creatures that they didn't have through mutation and cross breading.

Our discussion could go much further, but I have some Biblical advice for you. Don't tune out yet, I think you'll like it.

"Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die." If you believe in no God, then live it up, don't let anything hold you. Why not cheat on your wife (I speak as complete moron), why not do drugs till you overdose.
Why not do every single thing that will please you. Why have limits? Because of laws...who cares about them. Live it up, you only live once. So do everything your mind tells you to, If someone say something stupid--knock the stupid out of them(still speaking as a moron). Why not?

"Man is appointed once unto death, and then comes the judgement."

Heaven or Hell?

Sir, you can jump of the Sear's tower and say you won't hit the ground the whole way down, but I really hope you have a life insurance policy...b/c you will.

I have a friend that is in the same business as you...saving lives. He, like your friend gave His life for people that He didn't even know and would probably reject Him and say He didn't exist. You really have a whole lot of His characteristics already. You should really get to know Him. He'll talk with you if you like.

So, do you like hanging out with people that share the same interests as you?




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Until He Returns, I remain... About souls,
crucified_with_christ